Why Young Guns seem To Hit A Wall

Johnnyt · Oct 21, 2016

I've noticed over the years that most of the fast up and coming young guns seem, both male and female seem like they hit a wall. They either stop getting better, get worse, or it takes the another year or so to start to improve again. The ones that gamble show no fear of any shot at any point in the match. They don't care who they match up with. Then one day they get smoked by an older player. They lose enough of their own money for it to hurt bad. Now comes the wall.

Some never improve after that. Some get worse and some quit the game. The few that learned something from the beating, like playing safe at the right times, will pick themselves up and continue to grow.

I've seen this happen to a lot young players in dozens of poolrooms. I was one of the ones that hit that wall after a beating I thought I couldn't lose. I never really got over my beating. I never really got any better, but found that if I played for no more than $10 a game or no more than $200 a set, I could still play at a decent level, but really never got as good as it looked like I was headed for. Johnnyt

Straightpool_99 · Oct 21, 2016

Johnnyt said:
I've noticed over the years that most of the fast up and coming young guns seem, both male and female seem like they hit a wall. They either stop getting better, get worse, or it takes the another year or so to start to improve again. The ones that gamble show no fear of any shot at any point in the match. They don't care who they match up with. Then one day they get smoked by an older player. They lose enough of their own money for it to hurt bad. Now comes the wall.

Some never improve after that. Some get worse and some quit the game. The few that learned something from the beating, like playing safe at the right times, will pick themselves up and continue to grow.

I've seen this happen to a lot young players in dozens of poolrooms. I was one of the ones that hit that wall after a beating I thought I couldn't lose. I never really got over my beating. I never really got any better, but found that if I played for no more than $10 a game or no more than $200 a set, I could still play at a decent level, but really never got as good as it looked like I was headed for. Johnnyt

There is a point of diminishing returns for any pool player in their development. To get better usually means to play full time, with no job and even play nearly round the clock. Some lack the talent to go any further, anyway. Also, psychology plays a big part, like you said.

Some people just burn out on the game as well.

If you have flaws in your game there is usually a need to get worse before you get better, when you correct it. Some people never quite get over that bump in the road.

alstl · Oct 21, 2016

Johnnyt said:
I've noticed over the years that most of the fast up and coming young guns seem, both male and female seem like they hit a wall. They either stop getting better, get worse, or it takes the another year or so to start to improve again. The ones that gamble show no fear of any shot at any point in the match. They don't care who they match up with. Then one day they get smoked by an older player. They lose enough of their own money for it to hurt bad. Now comes the wall.

Some never improve after that. Some get worse and some quit the game. The few that learned something from the beating, like playing safe at the right times, will pick themselves up and continue to grow.

I've seen this happen to a lot young players in dozens of poolrooms. I was one of the ones that hit that wall after a beating I thought I couldn't lose. I never really got over my beating. I never really got any better, but found that if I played for no more than $10 a game or no more than $200 a set, I could still play at a decent level, but really never got as good as it looked like I was headed for. Johnnyt

In all sports people tend to plateau but in pool since there is no money in it the youngsters have to find a way to make a living other than pool so this might account for lack of progression.

Another factor is the wide array of entertainment available to kids these days with xbox, playstation and many other things we didn't have. A pool hall was an exciting thing for me when I was a kid because there was nothing else. These kids today have other options.

jackpot · Oct 21, 2016

losing hurts

When you are young and improving every day you start beating people that you
had looked up to and thought were really good when you first started playing.
It's like you are climbing a ladder, a higher rung everyday. You here 'That kid's
going to be a champion ', and people want part of your action because you are
able to beat players now that you couldn't a short time ago. Your improvement
slows down but you're still getting better. Getting beat by an older more experienced
player was never discouraging they had been playing for a long time. The one kills
you is when a young player that has not been playing near as long as you beats
your brains out. Oh s*** maybe I'm not going to be a champion. this kid can do
things that I still can't do. Some can just blow it off and some can't.
jack

Jaden · Oct 21, 2016

I've commented on this several times...

Johnnyt said:
I've noticed over the years that most of the fast up and coming young guns seem, both male and female seem like they hit a wall. They either stop getting better, get worse, or it takes the another year or so to start to improve again. The ones that gamble show no fear of any shot at any point in the match. They don't care who they match up with. Then one day they get smoked by an older player. They lose enough of their own money for it to hurt bad. Now comes the wall.

Some never improve after that. Some get worse and some quit the game. The few that learned something from the beating, like playing safe at the right times, will pick themselves up and continue to grow.

I've seen this happen to a lot young players in dozens of poolrooms. I was one of the ones that hit that wall after a beating I thought I couldn't lose. I never really got over my beating. I never really got any better, but found that if I played for no more than $10 a game or no more than $200 a set, I could still play at a decent level, but really never got as good as it looked like I was headed for. Johnnyt

That's the danger at becoming really good at a really young age. The fearlessness that drives their high level of competitiveness does not come from a realistic understanding of their capabilities and that of their opponents, it comes from naivete.

Eventually that naivete wears off and like you, I've seen it happen tons of times, when it wears off, and they start to feel the stress, they have no coping mechanism for it and they hit that wall.

I know from experience also, because it happened to me and it's taken the better part of two decades to get past it.

I've had to go from being a strictly feel player to a deliberate player, now I'm finally getting back to becoming a partial feel player again with positive results.

Well, at least not absolutely every aspect of my game is deliberate any more.

Jaden

Johnnyt · Oct 21, 2016

Jaden said:
That's the danger at becoming really good at a really young age. The fearlessness that drives their high level of competitiveness does not come from a realistic understanding of their capabilities and that of their opponents, it comes from naivete.

Eventually that naivete wears off and like you, I've seen it happen tons of times, when it wears off, and they start to feel the stress, they have no coping mechanism for it and they hit that wall.

I know from experience also, because it happened to me and it's taken the better part of two decades to get past it.

I've had to go from being a strictly feel player to a deliberate player, now I'm finally getting back to becoming a partial feel player again with positive results.

Well, at least not absolutely every aspect of my game is deliberate any more.

Jaden

Thank you. You get it. Johnnyt

Chicagoplayer · Oct 21, 2016

Every single one of you makes points-

Every single one of you makes points I visually take you on a ride for-

I'm only surprised that tournament stamina v's gamblers stamina hasn't been discussed further and where different psychology enters that realm.
i.e. Playing many people, over many days (climbing the ladder) v's playing one person for a lengthy duration (usually one day)

maha · Oct 21, 2016

that is the difference between major league and minor league. those that can take adverse conditions and still come back and those that cant. along with better ability. when you are really tops you keep growing longer. the minor league guys stop progressing sooner.
it has nothing to do with some player giving you a beating. that is just a bad excuse for giving up or not having it in the first place. and sport is more than just the athletic ability. it is a complete package to get better than just good.

Johnnyt · Oct 21, 2016

In my case it was two fold. When I was between 14 and 16 years old, my father took me around to meet a lot of the great action players in the NY, NJ, PA and MA area. He made sure I saw how they lived and where they lived outside the poolroom. That woke me up quick. I've had a job or a business up to age 60. Johnnyt

JCIN · Oct 21, 2016

At the top level its all mental. All pro level guys can make the shots. It comes down to decision making and mental toughness. In tournament play luck can play a factor as well but the great players find ways to outrun that over the long term.

Most young guns get stopped by booze, drugs, gambling or the wrong women. In other words bad decision making. Finding out they are not invincible is a big hurdle as well. Learning how to win is hard too. A friend had a great quote:

"First you have to learn how to make balls, then you have to learn how to play and finally you have to learn how to win." It sounds simple but if you look at history most champions can point to one event or a point in time when they broke through and started winning. Most guys never do that.

hang-the-9 · Oct 21, 2016

Johnnyt said:
I've noticed over the years that most of the fast up and coming young guns seem, both male and female seem like they hit a wall. They either stop getting better, get worse, or it takes the another year or so to start to improve again. The ones that gamble show no fear of any shot at any point in the match. They don't care who they match up with. Then one day they get smoked by an older player. They lose enough of their own money for it to hurt bad. Now comes the wall.

Some never improve after that. Some get worse and some quit the game. The few that learned something from the beating, like playing safe at the right times, will pick themselves up and continue to grow.

I've seen this happen to a lot young players in dozens of poolrooms. I was one of the ones that hit that wall after a beating I thought I couldn't lose. I never really got over my beating. I never really got any better, but found that if I played for no more than $10 a game or no more than $200 a set, I could still play at a decent level, but really never got as good as it looked like I was headed for. Johnnyt

I think the bold is the key to getting better, not so much the gambling part. My son is stuck at his level because he refuses to change anything to get better or practice things for real aside from slamming balls in at break speed if he misses a shot. Gets annoying to watch him run 3 9 ball racks in practice then miss 3 times on one game 10 minutes later or sell out on kicks or safes because he hits things too fast or too slow. Refusal to see the issue in yourself or saying that you will never get good and give up are probably 90% of why players don't improve.

Island Drive · Oct 21, 2016

Lack of knowledge and understanding of the physics of ball collisions and sound fundamentals.

pwd72s · Oct 21, 2016

Island Drive said:
Lack of knowledge and understanding of the physics of ball collisions and sound fundamentals.

If that were all there was to it, Dr. Dave would be a world beater.

I think JCIN nailed it.

Besides, what's so great about being a top pro pool player? While I sure do admire their skill, there isn't one I'd want to trade lives with.

PhilosopherKing · Oct 21, 2016

Pool gets pretty close to last pick when it comes to drawing from the the "athleticism" talent pool in this country.

Did you happen to catch the medal counts from this past Olympics?

Imagine if our top athletes and coaches were dedicated to this game.

If there was a way to quantify and measure athletic aptitude, I think you'd find that the Taiwanese, Filipino, and even the European players rank within a top percentile.

I don't believe the same would be true of the Americans.

PocketSpeed11 · Oct 21, 2016

,,..................................................

Get_A_Grip · Oct 21, 2016

Since pool is a muscle memory game, I think a lot of young guns see quick progress in their game, only to eventually practice less and less and take the smaller things in the game for granted.

In any muscle memory sport, after 3 days of not practicing, your skills will drop. Sometimes, it's not really noticeable -- but to play at a high level I think that there are VERY subtle things that make a shot, leave, or stroke better. Only by putting in the practice time hitting balls can one maintain or improve their skills once your reach a certain level (IMO).

Fuji-whopper · Oct 21, 2016

Straightpool_99 said:
There is a point of diminishing returns for any pool player in their development. To get better usually means to play full time, with no job and even play nearly round the clock. Some lack the talent to go any further, anyway. Also, psychology plays a big part, like you said.

Some people just burn out on the game as well.

If you have flaws in your game there is usually a need to get worse before you get better, when you correct it. Some people never quite get over that bump in the road.

Of the people that I know of that had a table at home they always seemed to reach a very proficient level but could never really compete under pressure, as they had reached that level with very little competition or competitive experience under their belt. It is only a handful that could take the game at home and become a top-rated player, otherwise it's just like anything that's too familiar...you don't take advantage of it.

Neil

hang-the-9 · Oct 24, 2016

PhilosopherKing said:
Pool gets pretty close to last pick when it comes to drawing from the the "athleticism" talent pool in this country.

Did you happen to catch the medal counts from this past Olympics?

Imagine if our top athletes and coaches were dedicated to this game.

If there was a way to quantify and measure athletic aptitude, I think you'd find that the Taiwanese, Filipino, and even the European players rank within a top percentile.

I don't believe the same would be true of the Americans.

There is a funny parallel I saw that exactly matched how pool is in the US vs in other parts of the world, it's a documentary on table tennis. They follow a few US players who happen to be top players but also juniors. I found the issues they run into as well as the overall state of the game and players in various countries to be very very similar to pool.

Top Spin, I think you can find it on Netflix http://www.imdb.com/title/tt4219836/

chefjeff · Oct 24, 2016

If in a smaller town, the guy who is the best runs out of competitors so he has to either:

Go on the road

or

Play at a lower level in order to have someone to play at all.

I think this point is where the subconscious finds one's true goals and makes either one happen.

I say this as I saw Scott Frost reach that point and head for the road.

fwiw

Jeff Livingfston

Why Young Guns seem To Hit A Wall

Johnnyt

Burn all jump cues

Straightpool_99

I see dead balls

alstl

AzB Silver Member

jackpot

AzB Silver Member

Jaden

"no buds chill"

Johnnyt

Burn all jump cues

Chicagoplayer

AzB Gold Member

maha

from way back when

Johnnyt

Burn all jump cues

JCIN

TheActionReport.com

hang-the-9

AzB Silver Member

Island Drive

Otto/Dads College Roommate/Cleveland Browns

pwd72s

recreational banger

PhilosopherKing

AzB Silver Member

PocketSpeed11

AzB Long Member

Get_A_Grip

Truth Will Set You Free

Fuji-whopper

Fargo: 457...play some?

hang-the-9

AzB Silver Member

chefjeff

If not now...