When I was a kid I used an unconventional open bridge because I didn't know any better.
I've used that a few times in pool halls and I've had similar results. It's like a magnet.
Opinions Regarding Offering Advice To Young Players?
- Thread starter ChrisinNC
- Start date
When I was a kid I used an unconventional open bridge because I didn't know any better.
I've used that a few times in pool halls and I've had similar results. It's like a magnet.
C: The egos. Hint: it’s not the ego of the person not wanting advice.
We have a couple of advice givers in our leagues. You just don’t see the eyes rolling and snickering later.
I have found that you need to build a rapport
with people first. Play some, friendly conversation....
let some time pass.
You need to get to know the person a
little to see if they will be receptive or not.
If they are, suggest one small thing
at a time.
If you help them with their stance one
day, watch the next month and see if
they are working on it.
If they do, you might suggest a new piece
of info.
This way they don't get overwhelmed.
They see the benefits of your advice.
You can only help those willing to
WORK.
with people first. Play some, friendly conversation....
let some time pass.
You need to get to know the person a
little to see if they will be receptive or not.
If they are, suggest one small thing
at a time.
If you help them with their stance one
day, watch the next month and see if
they are working on it.
If they do, you might suggest a new piece
of info.
This way they don't get overwhelmed.
They see the benefits of your advice.
You can only help those willing to
WORK.
I "watch for a while" and if they need help, I offer to offer advice.
They can accept or decline.
I offer truth. The takers will improve if they can handle learning. The leavers are losers.
I can see if you are the proprietor of a room; treading lightly would be best. Still it wouldn't hurt to hustle the bright ones into improving.
I can see if you are the proprietor of a room; treading lightly would be best. Still it wouldn't hurt to hustle the bright ones into improving.
I used to practice during the day at my local tavern. It was usually so slow that the bar maid would play me to pass the time.(free table) I taught her 9 ball since that was the game she had the best chance to win a game. That worked and she started liking the game and on occasion made some good shots. I made it clear that I was never going to let her win, that way when she did win she knew she had done well.(earned it)
After a few weeks she asked, “why have you never given me a lesson?” To which I replied, “because you never asked.” So I gave her lesson 1 just to get her stance better. Explaining that I didn’t want to overload her and after a week of practice with the proper stance we would go to lesson 2. She wasn’t really that interested and there wasn’t a lesson 2. Oh well:shrug:
After a few weeks she asked, “why have you never given me a lesson?” To which I replied, “because you never asked.” So I gave her lesson 1 just to get her stance better. Explaining that I didn’t want to overload her and after a week of practice with the proper stance we would go to lesson 2. She wasn’t really that interested and there wasn’t a lesson 2. Oh well:shrug:
Biloxi Boy
Man With A Golden Arm
It all depends. How old is person needing advice? How bad is problem? Who else is present? If I had not been educated in the school of pool (unscheduled, unsolicited advice in a pool hall) I may have quit playing. The world I came up in was filled with knowledgable players who, in nonjudgemental manners, regularly instructed new players. When someone told me to "keep that stick more level with the table ", I also heard "you have part of it . . . you are worth instructing . . . keep at it and you will belong here".
You also need to consider age, because we come at this issue from different angles -- I played pool for 35 years before I ever saw a pool video clip. I still remember watching a group of young players boiling excitedly into the pool hall to try out a new shot they had just watched at home (now on their phone) and me asking a buddy, "what are they doing/talking about". I am still amazed at how much information is available now.
The future of our game depends upon recruiting players. If we do not make newcomers feel like they belong, they may not come back. Helping someone improve their skills is a perfect way to advance our sport on so many levels.
You also need to consider age, because we come at this issue from different angles -- I played pool for 35 years before I ever saw a pool video clip. I still remember watching a group of young players boiling excitedly into the pool hall to try out a new shot they had just watched at home (now on their phone) and me asking a buddy, "what are they doing/talking about". I am still amazed at how much information is available now.
The future of our game depends upon recruiting players. If we do not make newcomers feel like they belong, they may not come back. Helping someone improve their skills is a perfect way to advance our sport on so many levels.
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I hate to be picky, but I prefer just to work 1-on1 with players that have at least some level of natural talent, a true passion for the game and willing to put in the work necessary to improve.
The players I’m talking about in particular are players that I do know and they know me, and I’m quite sure they respect my knowledge and ability for the game. Some players just have no clue what they need to change in order to improve, when it is crystal clear obvious to me when observing them.
This one player in particular has three or four major things they need to change, but I’m only bringing up one issue at a time, which I see as the most critical one, so as not overwhelm him. Once I see him making an improvement on this flaw, I’ll address the next issue. If I don’t see the effort to change my initial suggestion, I will likely take it as a hint to not bother him any further.
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Pick away, your thread. If you play these guys regularly then some kind of rapport should be developing from which you can figure the small steps.
Far enough... So are you assuming (hopefully in some and not all cases) the person going out of their way to kindly offer advice is unjustifiably full of themselves..?.., and can't possibly offer anything of value.
Ego is a two way street.
Before I found myself posting on this forum. I rarely had the opportunity to cite the "Dunning-Kruger effect". I find that here on AZ, it applies to almost every thread on some level.
Sad world we live in if those just looking to help, are painted with such a negative brush.
Myself.., I'll keep offering advice. Those who choose to believe that their abilities are beyond reproach can roll their eyes and snicker all they want.
‘The future of our game depends upon recruiting players. If we do not make newcomers feel like they belong, they may not come back. Helping someone improve their skills is a perfect way to advance our sport on so many levels.‘
Billiards has never been more popular in the world.
In my area it’s become much more eclectic...my wife and her friends play with us once a week ( in normal tines). They enjoy the social aspect. The Meet Up groups in my city also have a half dozen events a week at the sports bars. Bigger houses also mean a lot of tables in houses...3 out of The 7 houses on our cul de sac have billiard tables.
Yes, it’s a positive if someone wants to improve that there are those who offer advice. However, a good chunk of players just enjoy the activity for its own sake. My wife and .i go dancing once a week and I have no desire to take lessons and enter into some competition. People aren’t going to dance less in the world because there is less pro dancing competitions.
Billiards has never been more popular in the world.
In my area it’s become much more eclectic...my wife and her friends play with us once a week ( in normal tines). They enjoy the social aspect. The Meet Up groups in my city also have a half dozen events a week at the sports bars. Bigger houses also mean a lot of tables in houses...3 out of The 7 houses on our cul de sac have billiard tables.
Yes, it’s a positive if someone wants to improve that there are those who offer advice. However, a good chunk of players just enjoy the activity for its own sake. My wife and .i go dancing once a week and I have no desire to take lessons and enter into some competition. People aren’t going to dance less in the world because there is less pro dancing competitions.
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One-on-one: Give them sugar-coated lessons. Show them propositions shots. Show them advanced techniques. "Hey, check out this shot. I just learned it from this web page." "You gotta hit the ball lower to make it arc."
Group: Offer free/reduced lessons on a "frequent player card" promotion as an option along with free time. Offer both "beginner" and "advanced". Pay for ten hours, get one benefit.
Maybe I'm taking the subject matter of this thread too lightly.
When I say "yes, help the new player". I mean "offer" advice, not jam it down their throats. Leave it up to them if the conversation in that regard goes any further. If they are insulted at the notion of needing advice. Offer a money game, and teach them a lesson in humility...lol
When I say "advice", I don't mean give them a lesson. I mean make a simple suggestion on something they can try that may improve their game. Something like flattening their bridge for increased draw, rather than jacking up. ..simple, easy
By offering advice I don't mean to seize the opportunity to squeeze the enjoyment out of the game, and force them to become pros. Instead give them something that may make the game more enjoyable. The example of improved draw shots is probably the best example. Every new player wants to be able to move the cue ball around.
Most importantly... The friendly nature of simply offering should in theory make the player more at ease with their surroundings. I remember feeling flat out unwanted in some of the snooker halls I walked into as a teenager. Didn't matter that I was a stronger player. I wasn't the sort that all the retirees wanted in their hall.
These days when I go the local halls to hits some balls. Unless I'm not in the mood for conversation. I'll survey the hall for someone I may recognize, (player/regular) that's solo and offer to play. Usually the response is something to the effect that they don't want to gamble with me....lol. Of course I dismiss the idea and assure them I just want to hit balls with someone. From there the conversation starts and inevitably questions are asked about how I hit a certain shot. Hopefully they gain something, and at the very least we have been social. Happy feelings, all around....
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Well stated, and I feel the same. It would be the same for me when I go bowling, which is very rare indeed. I care nothing about improving my bowling game and would not appreciate anyone giving me advice on anything related to bowling. It's strictly social hour for me so no one needs to bore me with the tips on technique.
Just to be clear, the OP wasn't referring to purely recreational players. He had no desire to give advice to them.
Good thread. The premise that feedback is unwise unless precleared or solicited is valid.
Unless feedback has been expressly requested, a good approach to playing a player you perceive as thirsting for knowledge is to offer them three choices before the play begins.
1) shot and situation specific feedback during the match
2) feedback only when the match has been completed
3) no feedback of any kind
Some have wisely suggested, however, that making feedback available to relatively new players that have shown an enthusiasm for developing proficiency at the table is important. They are absolutely right.
I always remember how Tony Robles, in the early 1990s, use to do this, at Corner Billiards in New York, NY. If he didn't know you but saw you a few times at the room, he often introduced himself and showed you a thing or two at no charge. Some will feel that this was Tony, an acclaimed instructor, soliciting business, but this was not the case. Tony was just being an ambassador for his sport and, of course, for his poolroom. Another player who conducted himself this way was straight pool guru Dan Barouty.
As some have implied, we're all ambassadors for pool.
Unless feedback has been expressly requested, a good approach to playing a player you perceive as thirsting for knowledge is to offer them three choices before the play begins.
1) shot and situation specific feedback during the match
2) feedback only when the match has been completed
3) no feedback of any kind
Some have wisely suggested, however, that making feedback available to relatively new players that have shown an enthusiasm for developing proficiency at the table is important. They are absolutely right.
I always remember how Tony Robles, in the early 1990s, use to do this, at Corner Billiards in New York, NY. If he didn't know you but saw you a few times at the room, he often introduced himself and showed you a thing or two at no charge. Some will feel that this was Tony, an acclaimed instructor, soliciting business, but this was not the case. Tony was just being an ambassador for his sport and, of course, for his poolroom. Another player who conducted himself this way was straight pool guru Dan Barouty.
As some have implied, we're all ambassadors for pool.
Both sides of the coin here, yes/no..? So is it good to offer advice or not...?
I'm certain at this point, the bulk of opinions in this thread have to focused on the approach rather than the concept of helping new players. At least I certainly hope that's the case. The notion of people on both sides being so negative to the idea of helping a new player or being receptive to one being friendly saddens me.
Attitudes need a changing imo
:lol: You might be my wife's brother.
I heard something similar from her the other night as we played a game of pill pool (the lowest form of friendly competition). Now I know her pretty well @ over 30 years of marriage so tread lightly on "advice" but it's REALLY hard to watch her rickety bridge that I can only liken to using a golf club with one arm.
The suggested advice was "how to bridge the cue better" in order to be more consistent
You can watch the wobbly cue from across 9 feet of table. :banghead:
Her response was something like: "I don't care about getting any better" to which I replied: "I'm not trying to make you a professional".
Here's the thing...I don't like trying to help people get better at something, even if they ask. I have found it very underwhelming and mostly unfulfilling. BUT...it would be nice to not have to take a dive every time we play just to keep her on the table more than 3 minutes.
Hence we have "pill pool" and I have to adjust myself way down in order to play a game together. All because someone is too stubborn to learn how to hold a cue correctly. :lol:
Gee, that's fun!
In the rooms I used to own I liked to "visit" with my regular customers while they were playing just to say hi and watch a shot or two. If the moment felt right I would offer to show them something that may pertain to a shot they just took or maybe I just showed them a little pool trick (and how to do it). I think my customers liked that I took an interest in them.
One thing I also liked to do with beginning players if they seemed interested, was to show them how to shoot a draw shot. The draw shot looks very hard to a new player, but with a minute or two of instruction I could always show them how to do it. Teaching them that one shot would put a smile on their face, and mine too. Loyal customers are the mainstay of your business as you well know. :wink:
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The premise of then opening post is that a game is being played against a new and relatively enthusiastic player and asks how one should go about offering advice. I believe that an offer to give feedback prior to the beginning of a match will be accepted over 90% of the time, either during match or post match. But for the player who'd prefer to focus entirely on the play and hasn't the desire for feedback, they'll still learn from the challenge presented and by studying the play of a superior opponent.
I'm in favor of advising anyone interested but am sensitive to the fact that advising players can affect their concentration at the table, so giving them a choice is, to me, a necessary courtesy.