WWYD - Getting on 2 ball

iusedtoberich

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Getting around the 9 can be done with a little side spin (by caroming wider off the 1) or a lot (by following a little more steeply into the first rail and juicing it). Looks to me like you could juice it enough to get over to the 2. I'll have to try it to see how reliable it is.

pj
chgo

I juiced it a ton, and could not get there. That is why I posted the shot and asked if it was possible.
 

Tin Man

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
The 2-7 combo is best.

I feel very confident in my ability to control the cue ball with high outside, but trying to get short side shape on the two is extremely difficult. The only path that even works leads right to a hook behind the 7. It would take perfect direction and speed. I would be 20% at best to come up with any type of shot on the 2 ball. To make it worse, I'd then be 50/50 to shoot it up table. And even more difficult trying to get past those solids for a shot on the 3 if I had a flat angle and couldn't stun across table. I believe if I tried running those balls out that way I'd only make it past the 2 ball 1/10 tries.

The 2-7 combination I can get on 100% of the time however. I feel I could make this shot about 30% of the time. Getting a shot at the two ball isn't hard if you leave yourself an angle on the 2 ball so you naturally float towards the 9 you should come up with a shot. Whatever you leave yourself will be easy enough to get to the 3. I'd guess I could run through the balls this way 1/4.

25% > 10%. Play for the combo.

Also, in an actual game (not the ghost) there is a much better reason- you can play safe. Always a better option to play a route that doesn't lead to a hook and keeps you in the driver's seat.
 

The_JV

'AZB_Combat Certified'
The 2-7 combo is best.

I feel very confident in my ability to control the cue ball with high outside, but trying to get short side shape on the two is extremely difficult. The only path that even works leads right to a hook behind the 7. It would take perfect direction and speed. I would be 20% at best to come up with any type of shot on the 2 ball. To make it worse, I'd then be 50/50 to shoot it up table. And even more difficult trying to get past those solids for a shot on the 3 if I had a flat angle and couldn't stun across table. I believe if I tried running those balls out that way I'd only make it past the 2 ball 1/10 tries.

The 2-7 combination I can get on 100% of the time however. I feel I could make this shot about 30% of the time. Getting a shot at the two ball isn't hard if you leave yourself an angle on the 2 ball so you naturally float towards the 9 you should come up with a shot. Whatever you leave yourself will be easy enough to get to the 3. I'd guess I could run through the balls this way 1/4.

25% > 10%. Play for the combo.

Also, in an actual game (not the ghost) there is a much better reason- you can play safe. Always a better option to play a route that doesn't lead to a hook and keeps you in the driver's seat.

When I set this shot up last night I attempted both paths around the 9 ball. Going below the 9, I managed to get a decent shot on the 2 on each of my ~4 attempts. A threat of a hook by the 7 was never close. Only once was I able to spin the cue ball with enough force to get on the 2 going topside. I either hooked myself with the 8 or overran the 2. That said, my table is slow and worn, so that drastically changes the weight and how quickly I lose the action on the CB.

Going bottom side is actually very natural, and I didn't find it difficult at all. I think I said it in my previous post, but it's just a "sewer shot" that needs a little adjustment.

Now..., I honestly didn't consider the runout when playing shape on the 2. Just focused on the question of getting on the 2 off the bottom rail. Although I was able to consistently get on the 2 by splitting the 9 / 6. Getting to the 3 after the 2 would have made for another difficult shot. ...and quite honestly, a way more difficult shot than simply getting on the 2 from the 1.

Playing the 2 / 7 combo would give the best chance to generate simplistic shape for a transistion from 2 to 3. However, I think you'd need to be very close to the long rail when shooting the combo for it to feel even remote close to comfortable.

Considering the cricumstances of actual match play vs the Ghost... I think my deep seeded hatred of combos would probably have me going bottom rail to get on the 2 in an actual match. I would of course have the option of playing safe with the 2 if I didn;t like my shape, and subsequent route to the 3. Playing the ghost however requires the runout or loss, so then I would more heavily consider the combo as the best option.
 
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straightline

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I juiced it a ton, and could not get there. That is why I posted the shot and asked if it was possible.

You're probably right; just imagining this - no 9 footer at my disposal. What if you hit the one as full as possible. Kind of a stun (i hate that word but I guess that's the word) spin where the ball gets closer to side and exits flatter and hits a full diamond interval away from the posted example. If that much works the cue ball should break off the foot rail at 45 degrees and roll into place on spin propulsion.

Needless to say, "or not."
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
It is possible to miss the 9 on the top side by a fair margin and go into the second rail with the cue ball spinning like a top. You have to take a fuller hit on the 1 ball, adjust the angle into the first cushion with follow/draw to hit where you want on the end rail and adjust the speed to leave the cue ball near the third rail. I don't think this is the right way to play this particular position -- I'm just pointing out that you can arrive at the second cushion softly and with great steaming piles of left spin. Here's VP's take on it:

CropperCapture[60].jpg

(Edit: as SL pointed out above)
 
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Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
It is possible to miss the 9 on the top side by a fair margin and go into the second rail with the cue ball spinning like a top. You have to take a fuller hit on the 1 ball, adjust the angle into the first cushion with follow/draw to hit where you want on the end rail and adjust the speed to leave the cue ball near the third rail. I don't think this is the right way to play this particular position -- I'm just pointing out that you can arrive at the second cushion softly and with great steaming piles of left spin. Here's VP's take on it:

View attachment 556983

(Edit: as SL pointed out above)
Do you think there’s more or less margin for error going above the 9 vs. below it?

pj
chgo
 

straightline

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It is possible to miss the 9 on the top side by a fair margin and go into the second rail with the cue ball spinning like a top. You have to take a fuller hit on the 1 ball, adjust the angle into the first cushion with follow/draw to hit where you want on the end rail and adjust the speed to leave the cue ball near the third rail. I don't think this is the right way to play this particular position -- I'm just pointing out that you can arrive at the second cushion softly and with great steaming piles of left spin. Here's VP's take on it:

View attachment 556983

(Edit: as SL pointed out above)

That's it. I like these maxed out shots because they usually only do what they do.
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
That's it. I like these maxed out shots because they usually only do what they do.
Yes. At carom billiards there are "maximum english" systems in which the angles don't change as long as you have at least a certain (large) amount of side spin.
 

The_JV

'AZB_Combat Certified'
Every table and player skill level is different of course so I think all opinions are subjective.

I do know that I hit this shot about a dozen times as setup by iusedtoberich and only once was I able to go topside of the 9 with success. Bottom side of 9 was successful in each of my 4 attempts. The CB spin is non-existent with the correct amount of pace by the time it hits the bottom rail. ...again, this is cloth dependent.

It looks like the 7 comes into play, but I'm willing to bet that those even trying to park the CB behind it purposely will fail 8/10 times.

We should note that Bob's simulation is very different than the screen shot in the first post. Glancing off the 1 in the simulation opens up the top side shape quite a bit
 
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iusedtoberich

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Every table and player skill level is different of course so I think all opinions are subjective.

I do know that I hit this shot about a dozen times as setup by iusedtoberich and only once was I able to go topside of the 9 with success. Bottom side of 9 was successful in each of my 4 attempts. The CB spin is non-existent with the correct amount of pace by the time it hits the bottom rail. ...again, this is cloth dependent.

It looks like the 7 comes into play, but I'm willing to bet that those even trying to park the CB behind it purposely will fail 8/10 times.

We should note that Bob's simulation is very different than the screen shot in the first post. Glancing off the 1 in the simulation opens up the top side shape quite a bit

I had the same results with the CB spin dying by the time it hits the second rail, and I also tried it multiple times. My cloth is 8 yr old 860. Balls are Super Aramith 10 years old but polished.

I'll try the new suggestions and video them in the next couple of days.
 

Black-Balled

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'll try it 10x and give my subsequent plan too.

I still think I am going betw 7/2. We shall see...
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
I had the same results with the CB spin dying by the time it hits the second rail
I finally tried it a few times on my middle-aged Simonis 860 (a little sticky).

Holding the spin all the way to the other end rail was tough - I could only get the CB to rebound directly toward the 8 & 2.

I'll try it later on more slippery cloth.

pj
chgo
 
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The_JV

'AZB_Combat Certified'
I finally tried it a few times on my middle-aged Simonis 860 (a little sticky).

Holding the spin all the way to the other end rail was tough - I could only get the CB to rebound directly toward the 2 (not between the 7 & 2), and had to hit it hard enough to go almost the whole distance to the 2 (couldn't stop short enough for an easy cut angle).

I'll try it later on more slippery cloth.

pj
chgo

Exactly what I was experiencing...
 

ChrisinNC

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Coming off the side rail, then between the 8 and 9 and off the end rail, then hopefully ending up near the long rail behind the 2 for a shot. The 7 provides scratch protection, just by chance the CB is headed towards that pocket, although I guess you could possibly hook yourself behind the 7.
 
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sparkle84

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Do you think there’s more or less margin for error going above the 9 vs. below it?

pj
chgo



Much more as Bob diagrammed it. If you take a straight edge and apply it to his diagram from the point he shows on the 1st rail and extend it towards the short rail but stay below the 9 you'll note that if you clear the 9 by a reasonable amount it brings you close to the 7 on the way to the 3rd rail.
The window you have (directionwise off the 1st rail) to miss both the 9 and 7 is rather small. It's going to be extremely sensitive to both speed and english off that 1st rail. (Not to mention very precise cut angle) JV says he had the most success going that way but IMO he'd be in the minority.
As Bob diagrammed it your MOE as far as direction to the 2nd rail goes is fairly large. However you must really spin the CB for proper results.
Bob also suggested adjusting the angle to the 1st rail with follow/draw. I don't agree with that. Having BIH I'd adjust via the cut angle and use middle left so as to more easily generate the spin needed off the top rail.
3Cushion players would know immediately how to hit this shot. They use it when the 2nd ball is close to the 3rd rail to turn it into a big ball instead of a small ball. This shot is almost always hit with a center to low ball.
Well, JMO

As far as getting to the 3 ball I don't see much problem unless you land dead straight on the 2 ball. Anywhere from an inch to 3 or 4 inches off the rail is doable.
 
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noMoreSchon

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I just tried setting up the cue ball about 1/2 ball from the spot, towards the pocket the

one ball is in and going top left to come down. Still not an easy shot, either way. But had

more success coming at it thisway than going 3 rails for it. Doubling out of the corner

with top can cause problems, especially if you are 'not trying' to overspin it. Took 10

shots this way, got there 4 times.I wasn't able to get there any out of ten drawing it out

of the pocket. That 8 ball got me twice.
 
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