The WWYD Thread...

The_JV

'AZB_Combat Certified'
In the spirit of the WWYD (getting on the 2) thread, (and not wanting to highjack it) I thought I'd give generating an ongoing discussion of various shots a try.

I was just watching the latest 'Earl commentated' Billiards Network video. An EuroTour match between Filler and Kazakis. In the first few racks Filler makes some odd choices imo. This particular one jumps out to me because it illustrates how opting to play lazy shape on a would be easy combo can bite you in the ass. (aka the fore mentioned thread)

Here's the screen shot:
filler.jpg
Personally, I would use running english, play two rails and go short side on the 7 and play it into the corner Filler is shooting from.

Here's what Filler does.
https://youtu.be/22iHov8h604?t=2179

After watching this I went down to the table with the screen shot. Set it up, and got on the 7 short side in all my three attempts. Each of the 3 attempts had the 3 ball off the top rail by small varying amounts.

What would you do...?
 
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jimmyg

Mook! What's a Mook?
Silver Member
In the spirit of the WWYD (getting on the 2) thread, (and not wanting to highjack it) I thought I'd give generating an ongoing discussion of various shots a try.

I was just watching the latest 'Earl commentated' Billiards Network video. An EuroTour match between Filler and Kazakis. In the first few racks Filler makes some odd choices imo. This particular one jumps out to me because it illustrates how opting to play lazy shape on a would be easy combo can bite you in the ass. (aka the fore mentioned thread)

Here's the screen shot:
View attachment 557076
Personally, I would use running english, play two rails and go short side on the 7 and play it into the corner Filler is shooting from.

Here's what Filler does.
https://youtu.be/22iHov8h604?t=2179

After watching this I went down to the table with the screen shot. Set it up, and got on the 7 short side in all my three attempts. Each of the 3 attempts had the 3 ball off the top rail by small varying amounts.

What would you do...?

If I shot the combo...probably exactly what Filler did...:smile:

I'd try the two/three rail, short side, position for the 7 downtable (yes BB, "downtable"). :smile:
 

bbb

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
I think the position”zone” for the combo is larger than getting between the 9 and the ball
Plus I think Joshua didn’t think the combo was that tough a make
 

jimmyg

Mook! What's a Mook?
Silver Member
I think the position”zone” for the combo is larger than getting between the 9 and the ball
Plus I think Joshua didn’t think the combo was that tough a make

It is larger...now, if the 9 was off the rail a bit I'd have to rethink my approach...if it was on the rail, I'd probably stick to trying the short shape on the 7.
 

Black-Balled

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Lazy shape was the shot to get on the combo? I think there was a bit of showing off there* (and as executed, rightfully so) and the shape for the combo was spot on.

He hit the combo bad. that's why we learned not to play shape for combos.

*as in the other wwyd thread, I'd be going 3 rails to the combo, but hitting the end (see, jimeyG:tongue:?) rail closer to the corner makes opposite side pocket scratch more likely.
 

peppersauce

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I like playing the shot with a high CB, as you suggested. But I’m not convinced it was available. Or maybe it was, but the side pocket was big from that angle with a high ball. It looks like he would have to hit the long rail before the side pocket to get good on the ball. Maybe he felt either he couldn’t get where he wanted to be or the side pocket was in play if he elected to use top spin. A lot of factors could’ve influenced his decision, like slick cloth or tighter pockets (inability to cheat the pocket to create a slightly different CB path).

At any rate, I don’t like combinations so I’m always looking at other options when those shots come up.

Edit: I just set the shot up a few times and got dead perfect short side each time. Looks a lot different in front of me than the pic above. The side pocket definitely isn’t in play, lol. I even moved the 5 a full diamond off the rail and still got decent short side position. That’s definitely the route I would choose.
 
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The_JV

'AZB_Combat Certified'
Lazy shape was the shot to get on the combo? I think there was a bit of showing off there* (and as executed, rightfully so) and the shape for the combo was spot on.

By "lazy" I mean he treated it like a certainty without regard to landing bad.

For sake of full disclosure, my first instinct is to avoid combos at all costs and if it seems like the best option, then do the next best one. With that said, it's safe to assume I do not have a handle on the best spot to shot that combo. I wouldn't have thought it would have been a blind back cut into a ball that needs to cut the opposite way...

I guess by definition "shape" on the combo constitutes being nearly anywhere above the 7 and not snookered by the 8 ball. So yes, the target zone is considerably larger than the short side.

Obviously I have zero credits/titles to my name that give me the right to question Filler. I was just surprised that he opted to swing in such a haphazard fashion at combo that was really unnecessary.
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
I think Filler figured he couldn't miss because the 9 was a little off the rail. It was a little too much off the rail and he landed the 7 exactly in the middle of the shot, which is rail and ball at the same time. Unfortunately, that doesn't make. A little fuller or a little thinner does go.

Earl suggested the 9 on a billiard. See PoolManis's recent post on caroms in the Deep Knowledge thread for what Earl is talking about.
 

pt109

WO double hemlock
Silver Member
I feel Joshua didn’t respect the combo enough.
Where was he going with whitey?
...just roll it in pocket weight, let whitey go to the short rail.
Basically, you play the combo “if you miss, you lose”...you’ll make a lot more.
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
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I feel Joshua didn’t respect the combo enough.
Where was he going with whitey?
...just roll it in pocket weight, let whitey go to the short rail.
Basically, you play the combo “if you miss, you lose”...you’ll make a lot more.
I think the combo was bigger at a slower speed, too.
 

The_JV

'AZB_Combat Certified'
Edit: I just set the shot up a few times and got dead perfect short side each time. Looks a lot different in front of me than the pic above. The side pocket definitely isn’t in play, lol. I even moved the 5 a full diamond off the rail and still got decent short side position. That’s definitely the route I would choose.

This is why I was encouraging everyone in the 'WWYD ....getting on the 2' thread to actually try going topside of the 9 ball. Waaay more difficult then (again running english) path below the 9.
 

ChrisinNC

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Using running spin to get behind the seven ball off 2 cushions appears to me like you’re going to have to hit the long rail before the side pocket, rather than after it. I’d be weary of scratching in the side pocket or hitting the side pocket far point, as regardless of whether you’re coming in below or above the side pocket, you’re going to have to come real close to that side pocket. That is likely why I believe Filler played it the way he did to set up the combo.
 
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Black-Balled

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Using running spin to get behind the seven ball off 2 cushions appears to me like you’re going to have to hit the long rail before the side pocket, rather than after it. I’d be weary of scratching in the side pocket or hitting the side pocket far point, as regardless of whether you’re coming in below or above the side pocket, you’re going to have to come real close to that side pocket. That is likely why I believe Filler played it the way he did to set up the combo.

He has that option though. It would not make financial sense for me to pretend I'm going to go straight up table
 

The_JV

'AZB_Combat Certified'
.....you’re going to have to come real close to that side pocket. That is likely why I believe Filler played it the way he did to set up the combo.

In all my attempts I never threatened the side pocket. In fact I felt it so unlikely standing over the shot that the possiblity wasn't more than slightest blip on my radar. I'm supremely confident that I can determine that a sewer isn't on, then Filler would have come to the same conclusion much faster.

I have zero doubt his decision to play the combo was just a means to finish the rack faster with what should have been a simple combo, even by my standards. The path he choose to get their was foolhearty and it bit him in the ass. I don't think I could have put the CB in a worst spot than he did for that combo.
 

sjm

Older and Wiser
Silver Member
I think Filler figured he couldn't miss because the 9 was a little off the rail. It was a little too much off the rail and he landed the 7 exactly in the middle of the shot, which is rail and ball at the same time. Unfortunately, that doesn't make. A little fuller or a little thinner does go.

That's how I see it. I remember this match and this position.

The combo is more than 90% for Filler. No way does he get out over 90% of the time playing short side shape, which even if attained, often leaves a shot that's tougher than the combo. I feel strongly that his choice was correct, even though he hit the combo poorly.

Had the nine been frozen to the rail, the case for the short-side shape approach grows much stronger, but with the nine off the rail, I think playing for the combo is right.
 

Black-Balled

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
In all my attempts I never threatened the side pocket. In fact I felt it so unlikely standing over the shot that the possiblity wasn't more than slightest blip on my radar. I'm supremely confident that I can determine that a sewer isn't on, then Filler would have come to the same conclusion much faster.

I have zero doubt his decision to play the combo was just a means to finish the rack faster with what should have been a simple combo, even by my standards. The path he choose to get their was foolhearty and it bit him in the ass. I don't think I could have put the CB in a worst spot than he did for that combo.

I agree that the side pocket isn't a concern for a good player, especially for a player the caliber of filler.. look at how tight that line off the 5 and past the 8 is...he'd have no prob missing the side.

That said, I don't think the combo's position was to blame for the miss; it was more the speed at which he chose to dog it.
 

Tin Man

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
agreed

That's how I see it. I remember this match and this position.

The combo is more than 90% for Filler. No way does he get out over 90% of the time playing short side shape, which even if attained, often leaves a shot that's tougher than the combo. I feel strongly that his choice was correct, even though he hit the combo poorly.

Had the nine been frozen to the rail, the case for the short-side shape approach grows much stronger, but with the nine off the rail, I think playing for the combo is right.

Agreed. He felt extremely confident in this combo.

As Bob said the speed was a hair too hard. The 9 was in the 'big ball' position in which it could be made either ball first or rail first. As played the 7 hit the rail and 9 at the same time leading to the maximum back cut. If he had hit this just a hair softer the 7 wouldn't have sunk into the rail and back cut the 9 as much, the throw would've brought the 9 into the pocket line better, and the pocket would've accepted the 9 a bit easier.

Now, you don't want to hit this softly as that diminishes accuracy on your strike, and you need the 9 to have enough smooth speed to work it's way into the pocket if it scrapes the rail and wobbles a bit (soft shots that hit the rail can sometimes drift off a bit).

In short, Josh just made a small speed error on this combo. I can't fault his choice to play for it. Short side could've worked but I wouldn't say that Filler did anything crazy. Honestly the way he played it he knew he would be close to the 7. He might have spun into the 7 and got short side, he might've ended up with a carom. But he'd never be hooked and he figured get close to it and make sure you have a good shot and he'll be ok. Seems reasonable, and his execution left him about perfect so it's hard to fault.

JV, I do like your point though. I think it's good to develop confidence in playing multiple rails with accuracy and getting comfortable playing balls short side. This will win you a lot of racks!
 

The_JV

'AZB_Combat Certified'
What it really boils down to for me is I was surprised that he missed the combo. Then after really paying attention to the shot on the 5, and seeing how he got in the worst spot possible for the combo (imho), I wondered why he didn't opt for the short side shape.

My own prejudice toward combos aside. The short side shape I would have to think would be as close to a gimme for Filler as anything else. Even getting less than ideal on the 7 still has Filler a heavy favorite to still get out.

I'm not saying playing shape on the combo was ill advised. In fact simply math makes it the best option to get out with the win. What I'm saying is it was not what I would do. Which is also a strong argument as to why I'm not a pro...lol.

I was curious WWYD...
 

ChrisinNC

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
In all my attempts I never threatened the side pocket. In fact I felt it so unlikely standing over the shot that the possiblity wasn't more than slightest blip on my radar. I'm supremely confident that I can determine that a sewer isn't on, then Filler would have come to the same conclusion much faster.

I have zero doubt his decision to play the combo was just a means to finish the rack faster with what should have been a simple combo, even by my standards. The path he choose to get their was foolhearty and it bit him in the ass. I don't think I could have put the CB in a worst spot than he did for that combo.
Just curious since you didn’t say, are you coming in to the side cushion before or after the side pocket?
 
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