Cue woods for the future

Kim Bye said:

The updates to CITES now involve everything in the Dalbergia genus, so is all ebony in the Diospyros genus and mahogany in the Swietenia genus.
All together that`s a pretty large chuck of what traditionally has been thought of as top quality woods for cue building.
Deep red/brown woods and most importantly black woods now seems to be few and far between.
There are plenty of woods to choose from, but many of the woods now left for us to use, I suspect wouldnt be used that much if availability and regulations where not an issue.
I have ordered alot of different woods now that I wouldn`t really order if the traditional stuff was available and legal.
I just turned some Katalox, wich I guess is about the darkest of the woods available now (I guess you can count in Macassar Ebony and Ceylon Ebony, but they are more brown than black...)
Katalox is pretty to look at, but really dense (Janka hardness of 3660lb/f) and it dulls cutter blades alot faster than African Blackwood or Ebony.
I turned some Pau Ferro too and it can be quite pretty, but it`s more light brown and has none of the deep red in it, that makes Cocobolo or Brazilian Rosewood so attractive. Pau Rosa has a more honey toned brown and is quite pleasant to look at and machines, glues and takes a finish well.
I`m sure there are lots of woods out there to try, but what do you guys that have been around for a long time think and what`s the plan for the Ebony, African Blackwood and Rosewoods you guys sure have in stock?

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Well walnut plays better and is denser than mahogany more often than not (true mahogany). Tho it’s not as “straight” a wood.....but neither is much of dalbergia genus.

Personally I don’t give one dam there’s good nuff wood here in America....

Let’s all stop for a second and thank the guitar making dumbasses like Taylor.....and folks freak out over elephants hell they were dropping dozens of trees just to get one keg black one and would let the rest rot due to.....dogma.

Come meet me in Florida when it cools down lll we’ll drop some ironwoods!


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Interesting points to be sure. I have always been a believer in buying more wood even if funds barely agree with me. Some of the wood I bought just 12 years ago has doubled and even tripled in value. Good wood is a good investment. It is certainly appreciating at a better rate than money in the bank.
Sapele is a relative of mahogany and is readily available. Some with very nice quilted or blistered figure. I have a decent amount of it, some pieces are denser than others.
I’m planning to be making cues for years to come. Therefore I am acquiring more wood as I find great quality and deals to be had. They’re out there.

I give up.
I'm selling all my Brazilian rosewood, ebony, Coco, bubinga, goncalo, kingwood and Pau ferro for $1 per pound.
Locally.

JoeyInCali said:

I give up.
I'm selling all my Brazilian rosewood, ebony, Coco, bubinga, goncalo, kingwood and Pau ferro for $1 per pound.

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Can I get a qp? Lol


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JoeyInCali said:

I give up.
I'm selling all my Brazilian rosewood, ebony, Coco, bubinga, goncalo, kingwood and Pau ferro for $1 per pound.
Locally.

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Sounds great, I am on the I-5 now doing 140 mph, be there in a few more hours.


:boring2::grin:

Will we ever see the sneaky nicknames for woods like the cue flippers came up with for ivory?

How about a cue be advertised as having ebxxy points, or a "good stuff" forearm?

Taylor Guitar and Ebony

"Let’s all stop for a second and thank the guitar making dumbasses like Taylor.....and folks freak out over elephants hell they were dropping dozens of trees just to get one keg black one and would let the rest rot due to.....dogma."


In regards to Taylor (who has a lock on the Gaboon Ebony market) what you
say about selecting only the blackest logs and leaving the rest to rot USED TO BE TRUE. Taylor now buys and sells GE whether it is streaked or not. They guarantee to buy the tree sight unseen. You cut it they'll buy it. It is a simple process to make grey streaked GB dead black by using Stewart-McDonald's fret board dye.

QMAKER said:

"Let’s all stop for a second and thank the guitar making dumbasses like Taylor.....and folks freak out over elephants hell they were dropping dozens of trees just to get one keg black one and would let the rest rot due to.....dogma."





In regards to Taylor (who has a lock on the Gaboon Ebony market) what you

say about selecting only the blackest logs and leaving the rest to rot USED TO BE TRUE. Taylor now buys and sells GE whether it is streaked or not. They guarantee to buy the tree sight unseen. You cut it they'll buy it. It is a simple process to make grey streaked GB dead black by using Stewart-McDonald's fret board dye.

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I know exactly what they do now but I guess I should ****ing stand up and clap for them right?

That “black is the good chit” is has and always will be the biggest crock of bull ever perpetuated. Ignorant ideas like that are why fools think the pretty wood or good wood only comes fr m special trees from special places....don’t get me wrong that for some species is true.....but just generally speaking I swear folks look at trees and wood like some we laugh about who don’t get the whole process of animals becoming ham at Walmart lol.

Like those folks in wall-e man that thought pizza grew out the ground.

I’ll just go to Arizona...they got plenty of people there who would love for me to cut down all their Indian rosewood trees......go ahead ask a keeb why

By the way this is a very simple idea.....

But you cannot respect something if you don’t know anything about it.

This isn’t tree hugger talk. Everyone needs to learn to respect the trees.


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There's loads of wood in the US that "should" make good cues, except you're kind of considered a hick if you follow Wharton Esherick's dictum. Basically (IOW paraphrasing) , "you ain't shit if you can't make great stuff from what grows in your back yard".

We grow the best rock maple (nod to canuckistanis, here, though ), and the best ash, to start with, for shafts. Birch should technically make a superior shaft to maple, but it is not a slam dunk substitute if the user can't "read" wood.

I've got American grown ebony (true diosporos); unfortunately it is in the form of a big flitch of thick veneer & only the center strip, about 2-1/2" wide, is pitch black. The rest is blond. It used to be the wood for golf clubs, when they were still made of wood. Persimmon is the common name. Then there is Texas ebony, which is not a true ebony but is black and dense.

Black locust would probably be dense enough, but the color is not a familiar one in cue circles. Green like heart poplar (table subrails) but fades to a honey brown.

I'll bet in terms of "hit" white oak could make a very serious cue, but it is rather coarse grain compared to the typical cue butt woods. & it isn't "rare" so less appealing to people who spend serious money on collector cues.

I like mahogany a lot for building doors and windows, but never would have considered it a cue wood? As someone else noted, American black walnut, carefully selected, is superior to mahogany in technical terms. (density, stiffness, etc).

There's a bunch of stuff growing in the desert states i don't know anything about.

There's a whole bunch of 2nd tier lumber that really is as good as ebony and cocobola: bocote, I actually like Ziricote even better than coco, but have not chosen to afford any yet. Bloodwood, PH, many, many more on market now that were not typical lumber trade woods 30 years ago.

The thing is, up to maybe 50 years ago, ebony was common & not terribly expensive (wish i knew then, etc....) and cocobola was almost cheap, being a poor man's substitute for rosewood. The woods were excellent for cues, and easy to source, so Brunswick used it by the carload for better cues, the few people like Rambow who had trained there knew where to source it cheap enough and continued, then the rush of makers in the 40's - 70's all copied each other and used it too, because they were not really wood guys who knew anything different. So now, there is a value system in the lumber used in cues that is related more to tradition, and ever more to "rareness" while there may well be plenty of wood and combinations that would easily play just as well, but "look wrong".

Then there's dymondwood (Yeah, i know that one is gone, but as an example) and a range of engineered products

smt

Zircote is turd compared to coco.
In hit and looks.
Good luck in finding a nicer hitting underwrap than purpleheart

Let's not even talk about straight grain BRW.

Well maybe i won't spend for ziricote next time Rocky Mehta tries to unload some on me afterall. It sure looks pretty. I like the looks of selected pieces better than cocobola. Have to defer to you on "it doesn't hit so good?"

What is BRW?

Forgot, Wenge is getting expensive (was still cheap only a few years ago when i bought 500 ft 8/4 to resaw for gov't flooring project). Apparently some use if for butts. I still have a small stash but didn't feel it had a very good hit in the Merry style i made. May have to re-try it based on other reports.

Theres a couple left-over boards of paduak here in 8/4m, anyone have experience with that? Pyinma comes and goes on the market. Not cites related AFAIK, but not commonly imported, for some reason.

Back to American lumber, Beech might make a nice dense butt; but try keeping it straight, lol; and definitely bland looking. Ditto, same comments, hop-hornbeam.

Happy to hear if anyone has tried any of these.

smt

Ssonerai said:

and cocobola was almost cheap, being a poor man's substitute for rosewood.

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Cocobola(sic) Dalbergia Retusa is genuine Rosewood

Not black, but there are some nice dark chocolate pieces of black mesquite. Domestic mesquite is nice to work with and can be reddish.

PRED said:

Cocobola(sic) Dalbergia Retusa is genuine Rosewood

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I'm aware of that, as a woodwhacker, but back then it was barely considered a reasonable substitute for Dalbergia nigra, e.g. (Too heavy, too oily though the first makes it better for cue buts.) It seems like it was mostly used for knife handles, and for handles on pots & pans (kitchen ware) as either a step up or step down from bakelite.

(potential?) US lumber - forgot Osage orange. America's premier bow wood for stick bows. Has decent numbers for pool cues. Smells like cat piss....

Australia has a whole continent of hard dense lumber we hardly ever see here.....

Someone mentioned pinyma....same family as our ornamental crepe Myrtle. I have a 62lb root ball off one all burled out. Looks like B.e.m. Burl

Persimmon is common in our parts most that cut it burn it because they think it’s rotten in the middle....I’m not even close to joking

There’s also the date plum which is a smaller more brown looking persimmon. I say this not as wood but the fruit, it’s my moms favorite everyone here always called the wild persimmon but it’s date plum!

Which brings me to my favorite wood I don’t know really why cuz man Bz...Brazilian rosewood is just perfect...but plum is just so perfectly feeling in my fingers I mean it’s plenty hard and all but it’s got a softness to its grain like a woman skin.

Osage is another and most of these we’ve named are full of reaction wood . To add another good one would be mulberry.


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Pinyma? Don't know them.
I know Asian Satinwood or pyinma.

Well maybe i won't spend for ziricote next time Rocky Mehta tries to unload some on me afterall. It sure looks pretty. I like the looks of selected pieces better than cocobola. Have to defer to you on "it doesn't hit so good?"

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Don't let me talk you out of it . Buy some and make cues and see how they are .

That's a beautiful forearm!

Good luck in finding a nicer hitting underwrap than purpleheart

Let's not even talk about straight grain BRW.

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What is BRW?

I have old Ceylon satinwood in 3' long turning squares. Never used it before, but was cutting some up for inlays in the BBC "Royal" table my wife bought. There's a bunch of missing veneers, so was sawing veneer and poplar backer (cross banding) to start doing the repairs. The inlays on this table include a lot of satinwood; both for the slightly silly looking "toilet plunger???" motif on all the legs, and the bandings. I think the original bandings were probably holly dyed black, but for repro, it's actually easier to just use ebony.

If it's not obvious, there are 2 sizes here. BBC used both (aprox) 7/16" wide, as well as 9/16" wide on different areas of the table.

smt

A lot of work in those veneers! Post pictures of the table.