level table with a drift

billy bones

billy bones
Silver Member
My table at home appears to be level. according to both of my levels 4 and 2 ft. the table is level. I can take a stripe ball length of the table center diamond medium speed, dead center hit, little to no roll off. Same shot 1st diamond it will make a dead hit on the opposite diamond but as the ball decelerates it drifts toward the rail. I am somewhat perplexed as to the actual problem. Any input would be greatly appreciated.
 

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
My table at home appears to be level. according to both of my levels 4 and 2 ft. the table is level. I can take a stripe ball length of the table center diamond medium speed, dead center hit, little to no roll off. Same shot 1st diamond it will make a dead hit on the opposite diamond but as the ball decelerates it drifts toward the rail. I am somewhat perplexed as to the actual problem. Any input would be greatly appreciated.

The problem starts with your levels.
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
How far off will a dollar bill under your level at one end, move the bubble?
"Cobra, you're being awfully nice here. Just go ahead and give him both barrels and tell him that construction levels suck and if he's not using precision machinist levels he's just pissing in the wind. OOPS, did i just type that? ;) Seriously OP, are you using machinist levels? ONLY way to get a table really right. Learned that here from the man himself.
 

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
Nothing wrong with my levels, they are true. I work construction my levels are good. something else is afoot.

Well, if you're sure your levels are that accurate when it comes to leveling the slates to within a few thousandths of an inch....and they show the slate is dead level....then maybe the floor is out of level👍
 

SmokinJoe46

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
BB, A good *steel* level can be verified or accuracy by observing the EXACT bubble location on any given surface, then rotate 180* in the exact same spot to see if the bubble shifts at all. If it move at all, the level is good for walls but not a table.
If you have a three slate table then perhaps one has settled in the corner just a tad.
The final thought could be the felt worn considerably in that area for whatever reason.
If it's time for new cloth they'll be able to pinpoint it when cloth is removed.
 

billy bones

billy bones
Silver Member
BB, A good *steel* level can be verified or accuracy by observing the EXACT bubble location on any given surface, then rotate 180* in the exact same spot to see if the bubble shifts at all. If it move at all, the level is good for walls but not a table.
If you have a three slate table then perhaps one has settled in the corner just a tad.
The final thought could be the felt worn considerably in that area for whatever reason.
If it's time for new cloth they'll be able to pinpoint it when cloth is removed.


I appreciate the input. My levels check out accurate. My table is a one piece slate. I have Simonis 860 in good condition. Whatever this , it is both subtle and as yet a mystery. I think Ill have to call A retired old friend Jack Shurtz and see if he has any ideas. I appreciate the help. Still seeking a solution. Thank you..

Namaste,

Billy Bones
 

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
I appreciate the input. My levels check out accurate. My table is a one piece slate. I have Simonis 860 in good condition. Whatever this , it is both subtle and as yet a mystery. I think Ill have to call A retired old friend Jack Shurtz and see if he has any ideas. I appreciate the help. Still seeking a solution. Thank you..

Namaste,

Billy Bones
What kind of table are we talking about here?
 

jviss

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
My levels check out accurate.

I think the point you are missing, and that RKC and others are alluding to, is that while your carpenter's levels may be "accurate," they may still be not precise enough for leveling a pool table.

Speaking as an engineer (not a table mechanic), there's an expression that goes "precision is repeatability; accuracy is truth."

One might also use the term "sensitivity" to refer to precision in measurement.

Your carpenter's level may be such that you can't visually detect a displacement of the bubble between the center index marks over a range that is easily detected on a precision level (referred to variously as machinist's level, millwright's level, precision level). And, that amount may indeed make a difference on a pool table.

You might think that you can measure with the carpenter's level more precisely by being very careful in observing the bubble position, and by reversing it to take out any error in the level's "zero." But you can't. The primary reason for this is that the vial that contains the oil and bubble is manufactured with an arc to allow the bubble to move when the level is tilted. This arc, for carpenter's levels, is on the order of 8" radius or so. A really, really good carpenter's level might have a radius of 18" This is still at least ten times less than the vial curvature of a machinist's level. The machinist's level will indicate a deviation from level that you will never see with even a very good carpenter's level.

So, while your level may indeed be accurate within the precision of the instrument, it's not precise enough for this kind of work.

An example that might help is that of a Voltmeter. Say you have a meter with three digits, and on the hundred Volt DC scale it reads from 00.0 to 99.0 V. Let's say it's been recently calibrated, too. You probe a node and it reads 45.0 V. We then get a more precise, recently calibrated meter and the same node reads 45.049V. Note that both are accurate. The latter is more precise. And, the latter is necessary if you need precision down to the millivolt (thousandth of a Volt).
 

Ssonerai

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Nobody wants to talk about the elephant in the room.

It's the top heavy entertainment center that's warping your slate.

:duck:

anon.
 

Lawnboy77

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Nobody wants to talk about the elephant in the room.

It's the top heavy entertainment center that's warping your slate.

:duck:

anon.

About the nicest I've ever seen.

I'm kind of fuzzy looking at that entertainment center, but might it be that the slate just wasn't machined as true as it could be? or maybe the frame is not supporting it properly? I do know that slate will flex some, even one inch thick. If you are getting roll off from the balls, but it is not consistent throughout, then I would think that would be a good indication that the slate is convex, or concave? If it's high in the middle then I think RKC has a cure for that. If memory serves me correct he was able to do that with a Gold Crown that he worked his magic on.
 

billy bones

billy bones
Silver Member
About the nicest I've ever seen.

I'm kind of fuzzy looking at that entertainment center, but might it be that the slate just wasn't machined as true as it could be? or maybe the frame is not supporting it properly? I do know that slate will flex some, even one inch thick. If you are getting roll off from the balls, but it is not consistent throughout, then I would think that would be a good indication that the slate is convex, or concave? If it's high in the middle then I think RKC has a cure for that. If memory serves me correct he was able to do that with a Gold Crown that he worked his magic on.

This is the same possibility Jack Shurtz brought up when I called him. I will dissemble, shim ever so slightly and install new felt and reassemble. He suggested some flex in the slate on that edge.
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
This is the same possibility Jack Shurtz brought up when I called him. I will dissemble, shim ever so slightly and install new felt and reassemble. He suggested some flex in the slate on that edge.
Jack and Eva used to do about all the good tables here in Tulsa. Great folks and really good mechanics, both of them. Hope they're enjoying being retired.
 

billy bones

billy bones
Silver Member
Jack and Eva used to do about all the good tables here in Tulsa. Great folks and really good mechanics, both of them. Hope they're enjoying being retired.

One of the first things I asked Jack was he enjoying his retirement. He said he really was. I've known Jack since he was making Sneaky Peats in his garage, which btw the way is a long time indeed. Great guy.
 

iusedtoberich

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I’m not a mechanic but how come you didn’t answer the question about which exact model of level you have?
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
One of the first things I asked Jack was he enjoying his retirement. He said he really was. I've known Jack since he was making Sneaky Peats in his garage, which btw the way is a long time indeed. Great guy.
Back when the TulsaBilliardPalace first started their monthly tournament Jack, Randy Anderson, Terry Young and couple others came down a lot. There was one guy named Ronny something that i believe passed away also. Wichita guys are ok in my book.
 
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