High Run Equivalency between a 9' and 10' table?

Dan Harriman

One of the best in 14.1
Silver Member
Roger that ChrisinNC - I will let you know. May even have some recorded runs, I was only playing billiards, then my friend purchased this ten ft. table. It has brought back some incentive to practice 14.1 again. Adios
 

ChrisinNC

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Roger that ChrisinNC - I will let you know. May even have some recorded runs, I was only playing billiards, then my friend purchased this ten ft. table. It has brought back some incentive to practice 14.1 again. Adios
That's great! I'm standing by my theory that 14.1 high runs on a 10-footer are nearly twice as tough, comparatively, assuming the same size pockets on both tables. For a player of your caliber that has numerous high runs of 200+ on a 9-footer, this should be very enlightening. If you are able to run 200+ on a 10-footer, then I may need to re-think my theory.
 

AtLarge

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
During the recent Bigfoot 10-Ball event, Danny DiLiberto opined that 14.1 is easier on a 10-footer than on a 9-footer, because of less congestion on the 10-footer.

That was the first time I'd ever heard anyone express that opinion, and it's counter to what I believe to be true (if other things are equal). High-run stats certainly argue against Danny's view. Anyone agree with him?
 
Last edited:

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
During the recent Bigfoot 10-Ball event, Danny DiLiberto opined that 14.1 is easier on a 10-footer than on a 9-footer, because of less congestion on the 10-footer.

That was the first time I'd ever heard anyone express that opinion, and it's counter to what I believe to be true (if other things are equal). High-run stats certainly argue against Danny's view. Anyone agree with him?

Jimmy Caras had a different opinion. I asked him at one collegiate 14.1 tournament whether he thought 8-foot tables were easier than 9-foot. He said that the old timers wouldn't miss on 8-foot tables until they got tired. I personally found 8-foot tables easier to run a lot of balls.

If you are used to playing very short, accurate position, having all the pockets closer is a larger advantage than the crowding is a disadvantage.
 

Poolmanis

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
During the recent Bigfoot 10-Ball event, Danny DiLiberto opined that 14.1 is easier on a 10-footer than on a 9-footer, because of less congestion on the 10-footer.

That was the first time I'd ever heard anyone express that opinion, and it's counter to what I believe to be true (if other things are equal). High-run stats certainly argue against Danny's view. Anyone agree with him?

Added difficulty to pocket balls overrides any positional advantage that 10-foot table might give.
Also reach comes a big part of game then.
I disagree with Danny Diliberto.
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
... Also reach comes a big part of game then. ...
Related to which is a rumor I heard once or twice.... They moved the championships from 10-foot tables to 9-foot to reduce Irving Crane's advantage. (He was pretty tall for players of that era.)
 

ChrisinNC

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
During the recent Bigfoot 10-Ball event, Danny DiLiberto opined that 14.1 is easier on a 10-footer than on a 9-footer, because of less congestion on the 10-footer.

That was the first time I'd ever heard anyone express that opinion, and it's counter to what I believe to be true (if other things are equal). High-run stats certainly argue against Danny's view. Anyone agree with him?
Certain aspects of 14.1 might be easier on a 10-foot table - such as easier to play safety and leaving your opponent a long, tough shot. However, as far as high runs go, I'd have to strongly disagree with Danny D as well. Like I stated in a post early in this thread, the only year Derby City used a 10-foot table for their 14.1 high run challenge, with the same size 4.5 inch pockets, only one player was able to run 100+ balls, and won that challenge with I believe a 117 run, and he was a English snooker player. In the 4-5 years since then, the high run has averaged over 200 in those years.

I'm curious to hear back from Danny Harriman as to whether he'll be able to achieve any high runs on the 10-foot player he is now practicing on, that come anywhere close to the numerous high runs he's achieved on a 9-foot table.
 

Dan Harriman

One of the best in 14.1
Silver Member
153

Certain aspects of 14.1 might be easier on a 10-foot table - such as easier to play safety and leaving your opponent a long, tough shot. However, as far as high runs go, I'd have to strongly disagree with Danny D as well. Like I stated in a post early in this thread, the only year Derby City used a 10-foot table for their 14.1 high run challenge, with the same size 4.5 inch pockets, only one player was able to run 100+ balls, and won that challenge with I believe a 117 run, and he was a English snooker player. In the 4-5 years since then, the high run has averaged over 200 in those years.

I'm curious to hear back from Danny Harriman as to whether he'll be able to achieve any high runs on the 10-foot player he is now practicing on, that come anywhere close to the numerous high runs he's achieved on a 9-foot table.

The table is not set up in an environment that is conducive to zero distractions. Ran a very clean 153 not long ago. It's a better game on the ten ft, extra distance is not as much a factor as how deep the shelf of pocket is. I feel when the table is moved to correct location I will get past the three century mark. This table was built for 14.1.
 
Last edited:

mikemosconi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The table is not set up in an environment that is conducive to zero distractions. Ran a very clean 153 not long ago. It's a better game on the ten ft, extra distance is not as much a factor as how deep the shelf of pocket is. I feel when the table is moved to correct location I will get past the three century mark. This table was built for 14.1.

I can't help but comment on how much you seem to worry about "distractions" in some of your posts. How about Babe Ruth hitting 60 homers in front of 70,000 people on a daily basis? Winning in competitive situations in any sport DEMANDS the ability to deal with all sorts of distractions. I understand that tournaments in the golden age of billiards were played in front of live audiences numbering in the thousands. I believe that an integral part of sports success IS the ability to deal with pressure and distractions - Those that can do that and play at their highest level most consistently are the real greats in any sport- those that use distractions as an excuse usually don't do so well in live audience competition.
 

Dan Harriman

One of the best in 14.1
Silver Member
That's weak and so r u sir

I can't help but comment on how much you seem to worry about "distractions" in some of your posts. How about Babe Ruth hitting 60 homers in front of 70,000 people on a daily basis? Winning in competitive situations in any sport DEMANDS the ability to deal with all sorts of distractions. I understand that tournaments in the golden age of billiards were played in front of live audiences numbering in the thousands. I believe that an integral part of sports success IS the ability to deal with pressure and distractions - Those that can do that and play at their highest level most consistently are the real greats in any sport- those that use distractions as an excuse usually don't do so well in live audience competition.

If your wanting a pool lesson u r goin bout it the wrong way, no refs in pool and baseball did and still does have. People who are truly in the know on this forum - know that I speak the truth rather courageously. There was a serious issue with where I was staying in nyc, I had to forfeit out of dragon event due to no sleep.
I Iike baseball and wish pool was half as successful as the great American game.If yer comparin' me to Babe Ruth then thenk u fer compliment - I have hit a few homers me self. Bottom line here is I think u would rather watch a player run 100 and out against yer LEAST favorite player over viewing a player running say 600 balls while practicing. Probly because u may enjoy the drama instead of being a purist. I don't LOOK 4 excuses to lose and if you ever make it to a big event (as a rail bird) - let me ask u in advance to please put yer device on silent. I real eyes you can't help but there's my comment. So please do not comment on something you don't understand.
 
Last edited:

Dan Harriman

One of the best in 14.1
Silver Member
Howdy

Danny, I hope you'll follow up with us on this post after you've had plenty of opportunity to adjust your 14.1 game to the 10 foot table, to compare the difficulty in achieving high runs between the 9 and 10 foot tables.

I plan to try your advice of sticking to centerball as much as I can when I shooting longer shots on our 10-footer. I've found it very frustrating at times when comparing my shotmaking to our 9-foot tables with the same sized pockets. Maybe I can get better results with your advice - it makes perfect sense.

I hope your 14.1 continues to improve ChrisNC, don't have any new runs to report as of late - been bitten by the billiard bug
 

mikemosconi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If your wanting a pool lesson u r goin bout it the wrong way, no refs in pool and baseball did and still does have. People who are truly in the know on this forum - know that I speak the truth rather courageously. There was a serious issue with where I was staying in nyc, I had to forfeit out of dragon event due to no sleep.
I Iike baseball and wish pool was half as successful as the great American game.If yer comparin' me to Babe Ruth then thenk u fer compliment - I have hit a few homers me self. Bottom line here is I think u would rather watch a player run 100 and out against yer LEAST favorite player over viewing a player running say 600 balls while practicing. Probly because u may enjoy the drama instead of being a purist. I don't LOOK 4 excuses to lose and if you ever make it to a big event (as a rail bird) - let me ask u in advance to please put yer device on silent. I real eyes you can't help but there's my comment. So please do not comment on something you don't understand.

Sorry my friend, but nothing you say will ever convince me that performance in ANY sport during practice is in any way comparable on an achievement level to performance in competition. Being a "purist" in billiards or any other sport in my opinion does not include the consideration of non competitive situations as really having any meaning at all. Being able to deal with pressure and distractions has to be part of any champion's make up - it is part of the very definition of a sports champion. Your REALLY trying to tell me that you would rather have the record high practice 14.1 run over winning a bona fide world championship 14.1 event? NOT me. I just respectfully disagree with any serious consideration of sports practice achievements.
 

Dan Harriman

One of the best in 14.1
Silver Member
roger that Mosconimike

I understand your point, as for myself if the camera is on (BU Exam 4 example) and if a person has a clear set of goals - they are in essence competing. When I ran the 351 there were times I had to deal with nervous mind chatter, as you probly know if the mind begins to wonder even a little - it will have a negative effect on trying to accomplish the goal at hand. If when I'm practicing without the camera on - that is when i'm working on my game and or the basics. I do understand your steadfast effort to keep the 2 separated (old school):smile: - it ain't that simple sir. I'm sorry for calling you weak in the prior post - I was out uh' line there and you do seem genuine in the point you made. The reality is Straight Pool tournaments today do not attract large crowds (except online) this is a new era - good or bad?
A large part to running many racks in 14.1 re-rack is being able to have a quite mind. I am not currently practicing much Straight pool - I believe that if the camera is on and the players goal is clear - the player is in fact competing. There are many top players trying to surpass the great Willie Mosconi's record of 526, they have their camera ON in hope of winning the big $ that Fat boy And Jay have offered (pay out is better than any top 14.1 event here in USA). I believe their offer has sparked some interest in 14.1 - just sayin. Not here to compare apples to oranges - I do think your baseball analogy to pool was lacking. Comparing Baseball (where there is huge sponsors) to Pocket Billiards where there is no structured tour and small sponsors is like trying to climb an icy mountain barefoot. Oh by the way I real eyes' there will always be hecklers and I can still run out with someone saying don't miss (with a beer in their hand) when it is my shot and I am down on the ball, I just think after completing 25 racks - without a miss ON CAMERA I have earned the right for a ref to be there (at the table) to stop the drama. Just out of curiosity what is your high run in straight pool? Have you ever practiced as if you were competing - I have. Also the fellow who just broke the world record in 3-cushion with a run of 32 - would that have been more prestigious had there been a crowd of people there? As for me it really made little difference that he was practicing against or with an opponent - I just like watching the incredibly superb run. Were all entitled to our opinion - that is mine sir.
 
Last edited:

mikemosconi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I understand your point, as for myself if the camera is on (BU Exam 4 example) and if a person has a clear set of goals - they are in essence competing. When I ran the 351 there were times I had to deal with nervous mind chatter, as you probly know if the mind begins to wonder even a little - it will have a negative effect on trying to accomplish the goal at hand. If when I'm practicing without the camera on - that is when i'm working on my game and or the basics. I do understand your steadfast effort to keep the 2 separated (old school):smile: - it ain't that simple sir. I'm sorry for calling you weak in the prior post - I was out uh' line there and you do seem genuine in the point you made. The reality is Straight Pool tournaments today do not attract large crowds (except online) this is a new era - good or bad?
A large part to running many racks in 14.1 re-rack is being able to have a quite mind. I am not currently practicing much Straight pool - I believe that if the camera is on and the players goal is clear - the player is in fact competing. There are many top players trying to surpass the great Willie Mosconi's record of 526, they have their camera ON in hope of winning the big $ that Fat boy And Jay have offered (pay out is better than any top 14.1 event). I believe their offer has sparked some interest in 14.1 - just sayin. Not here to compare apples to oranges - I do think your baseball analogy to pool was lacking. Comparing Baseball (where there is huge sponsors) to Pocket Billiards where there is no structured tour and small sponsors is like trying to climb an icy mountain barefoot. Oh by the way I real eyes' there will always be hecklers and I can still run out with someone saying don't miss (with a beer in their hand) when it is my shot and I am down on the ball, I just think after completing 25 racks - without a miss ON CAMERA I have earned the right for a ref to be there (at the table) to stop the drama. Just out of curiosity what is your high run in straight pool? Have you ever practiced as if you were competing - I have. Also the fellow who just broke the world record in 3-cushion with a run of 32 - would that have been more prestigious had there been a crowd of people there? As for me it really made little difference that he was practicing against or with an opponent - I just like watching the incredibly superb run. Were all entitled to our opinion - that is mine sir.

High Run in 14.1 is 147. Fully respect your thoughts and opinions, BUT-- YES I do think that ANY record breaking or significant sports achievement performed in front of a live audience of some significant size is much more prestigious than a sports accomplishment completed during a practice session; for my previously stated reasons.
Someone is willing to pay out a large sum to break 526 WITHOUT having a strong number of sworn witnesses? - they are willing to pay out on a self recorded camera??
 

Dan Harriman

One of the best in 14.1
Silver Member
yes

High Run in 14.1 is 147. Fully respect your thoughts and opinions, BUT-- YES I do think that ANY record breaking or significant sports achievement performed in front of a live audience of some significant size is much more prestigious than a sports accomplishment completed during a practice session; for my previously stated reasons.
Someone is willing to pay out a large sum to break 526 WITHOUT having a strong number of sworn witnesses? - they are willing to pay out on a self recorded camera??

147 is a solid run - hmm ever play snooker :- ) and yes if the record is surpassed ( i don't like the word broken) Jay Helfert and Fat boy from the west coast fly in to the players home town and check the table, so as to compare it to the video of the run and make sure nothing has been rigged. Kindy' surprised you ain't heard bout there offer? If the table meets their standards they pay out the big $ to the player. They do have equipment that can keep anyone who might replace balls or cheat - honest - so that is not an issue. Would you consider a live stream of people watching from miles away on their computer a live audience - just sayin? As for myself I would say it IS a form of competition - as there are others who are trying to accomplish the same goal - with their camera on. I have always played better in front of an audience and or when there is a dress code - it just made the match up seem more important to me. So I'm a bit 'old school as well, now you know or I hope at least will consider there are a few options in competing other than playing in a room full of people and their devices that can have loud unusual ringers - that uncannily happen in the 'dark horses' backstroke - on accident :-((an issue that did not exist in Mosconi's era). In snooker they have security for that and a ref for every table, not so much in American Pocket Billiards - that is why they say to win the Dragon promo event you have to feel like you belong, which is poor advice. When actually the winner is the one who 'hit em well' and it was that player 'turn' to WIN (great advice). In closing I would add - to give credit on how well the racks were completed and not so much value on where or who was watching has a more purists nature than a room full of sweaters who may or may not be betting on you. Not to get too deep on ya here Mike but I would rather control the environment with technology (isolation) than be sharked or distracted by it. Adios MosconiMike.
 
Last edited:

Dan Harriman

One of the best in 14.1
Silver Member
Word class

Didn't hear no rebuttal from ya mikemosconi, just thought I would mention that I have always considered any run over 150 to be world class. Eh no worries - just thought i.d. give ye a little incentive. Maybe post some of your runs if u catch one on tape. I understand when the eye in the sky becomes the audience it can be uh little new, maybe it will suffice.

They say da camra don't lie, might wanna get one that is not hooked into the internet - that can get a bit tricky I hear.
 

lfigueroa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I understand your point, as for myself if the camera is on (BU Exam 4 example) and if a person has a clear set of goals - they are in essence competing. When I ran the 351 there were times I had to deal with nervous mind chatter, as you probly know if the mind begins to wonder even a little - it will have a negative effect on trying to accomplish the goal at hand. If when I'm practicing without the camera on - that is when i'm working on my game and or the basics. I do understand your steadfast effort to keep the 2 separated (old school):smile: - it ain't that simple sir. I'm sorry for calling you weak in the prior post - I was out uh' line there and you do seem genuine in the point you made. The reality is Straight Pool tournaments today do not attract large crowds (except online) this is a new era - good or bad?
A large part to running many racks in 14.1 re-rack is being able to have a quite mind. I am not currently practicing much Straight pool - I believe that if the camera is on and the players goal is clear - the player is in fact competing. There are many top players trying to surpass the great Willie Mosconi's record of 526, they have their camera ON in hope of winning the big $ that Fat boy And Jay have offered (pay out is better than any top 14.1 event). I believe their offer has sparked some interest in 14.1 - just sayin. Not here to compare apples to oranges - I do think your baseball analogy to pool was lacking. Comparing Baseball (where there is huge sponsors) to Pocket Billiards where there is no structured tour and small sponsors is like trying to climb an icy mountain barefoot. Oh by the way I real eyes' there will always be hecklers and I can still run out with someone saying don't miss (with a beer in their hand) when it is my shot and I am down on the ball, I just think after completing 25 racks - without a miss ON CAMERA I have earned the right for a ref to be there (at the table) to stop the drama. Just out of curiosity what is your high run in straight pool? Have you ever practiced as if you were competing - I have. Also the fellow who just broke the world record in 3-cushion with a run of 32 - would that have been more prestigious had there been a crowd of people there? As for me it really made little difference that he was practicing against or with an opponent - I just like watching the incredibly superb run. Were all entitled to our opinion - that is mine sir.


I believe a run in practice, on a tough table, with a camera rolling, is totally legit worthy of accolades.

I have also heard, from pros, that for whatever reasons that they tend to run more balls in competition, perhaps because of the concentration and care taken.

Lou Figueroa
 

lfigueroa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Didn't hear no rebuttal from ya mikemosconi, just thought I would mention that I have always considered any run over 150 to be world class. Eh no worries - just thought i.d. give ye a little incentive. Maybe post some of your runs if u catch one on tape. I understand when the eye in the sky becomes the audience it can be uh little new, maybe it will suffice.

They say da camra don't lie, might wanna get one that is not hooked into the internet - that can get a bit tricky I hear.


I'd love to hit a run over 150.

So Danny, let me ask you: when I shoot I get a lot of break shots where the balls just do not open well. Other than "leave yourself better break shots" do you have any advice? Like maybe, higher v lower break shots, or leave room between the BB and the rack, or more angle, or something else?

Lou Figueroa
 

Dan Harriman

One of the best in 14.1
Silver Member
Howdy Lou

I'd love to hit a run over 150.

So Danny, let me ask you: when I shoot I get a lot of break shots where the balls just do not open well. Other than "leave yourself better break shots" do you have any advice? Like maybe, higher v lower break shots, or leave room between the BB and the rack, or more angle, or something else?

Lou Figueroa

Sure, I was having same issue with the 5x10 my friend just acquired. Get a microfiber towel and spray it with woolite, then clean the cloth with towel. Also I learned a new method from a table mechanic from St.Louis. When he recovered the table he saturated the cloth with water before stretching it and stapling down, then a couple of fans on to air dry. The cloth as it's drying stretches again, this allows the cloth to adhere to slate even more. Next time I may spray with rain water, :) it really makes a difference. We did not use the water method on the 5x10, probly why we needed the woolite so much - and the cloth is noticably less tight as a result. If you need the dudes tele# I can give to ya, him and his son are top notch table mechanics.
 
Last edited:

lfigueroa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Sure, I was having same issue with the 5x10 my friend just acquired. Get a microfiber towel and spray it with woolite, then clean the cloth with towel. Also I learned a new method from a table mechanic from St.Louis. When he recovered the table he saturated the cloth with water before stretching it and stapling down, then a couple of fans on to air dry. The cloth as it's drying stretches again, this allows the cloth to adhere to slate even more. Next time I may spray with rain water, :) it really makes a difference. We did not use the water method on the 5x10, probly why we needed the woolite so much - and the cloth is noticably less tight as a result. If you need the dudes tele# I can give to ya, him and his son are top notch table mechanics.


I'm in St. Louis and I'm pretty sure I know who you're talking about. And yes, he does top-notch work.

Lou Figueroa
where's the Woolite...
 
Top