Tighter pockets

rexus31

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
corners are 5 1/8th and sides are 5 3/4

To get the table to 4.5" pockets means you are going to have to account for a 5/8" gap (5/16" on each side of the pocket). I don't care if you stack facings or use a one piece 5/16" facing, the table is going to play like crap around the pockets. Neoprene is a different material than the cushion so regardless of what duro facing is used to close the gap, it will not play good at all. Rather than waste the time and money on a snake oil fix, it is recommended to do it right or live with the buckets.
 

mchnhed

I Came, I Shot, I Choked
Silver Member
To get the table to 4.5" pockets means you are going to have to account for a 5/8" gap (5/16" on each side of the pocket). I don't care if you stack facings or use a one piece 5/16" facing, the table is going to play like crap around the pockets. Neoprene is a different material than the cushion so regardless of what duro facing is used to close the gap, it will not play good at all. Rather than waste the time and money on a snake oil fix, it is recommended to do it right or live with the buckets.

I give up!....

Read the reply, again.

I never said it would play the same!

BTW...there is some shim material at the end of all rails, so according to you it should not play good at all.

Your math is off....you forgot to figure in the thickness of the original shims.

What thickness is a “standard” shim?
 
Last edited:

bradsh98

Bradshaw Billiard Service
Silver Member
I give up. Try it out on your table and report back the results.

I've done it. It works fine. In fact, I absolutely agree with the use of thicker facings, as opposed to stacking thinner ones.

Sometimes, a customer cannot afford, or simply does not want to pay, to have the sub-rails extended. In some rare cases, I have actually installed 3/8" thick 50A neoprene facing material.

Of course, it does not play exactly as a properly extended sub-rail plays. But, it isn't nearly as bad as some of you guys would like to suggest. How many have you have actually played on a table that was done in this way?

This table had fairly new cushions, when the new owner purchased it. Rather than spend the additional money on getting the table 'perfect', he opted to spend a fraction, to get the table playable (with the pocket specs that he wanted). When he is ready for new cloth, we will discuss whether he wants to make the investment in extending the sub-rails and replacing the cushions.
54369260_2246603535554614_4664976976203743232_n.jpg

54267956_2246603572221277_6075812692864532480_n.jpg
 

rexus31

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I give up!....

Read the reply, again.

I never said it would play the same!

BTW...there is some shim material at the end of all rails, so according to you it should not play good at all.

What thickness is a “standard” shim?

As I've stated NUMEROUS times. The facings are there for a purpose and that purpose it not to tighten the pockets.
 

mchnhed

I Came, I Shot, I Choked
Silver Member
As I've stated NUMEROUS times. The facings are there for a purpose and that purpose it not to tighten the pockets.

And, what is that purpose?
What is the standard thickness?
What is the standard Duro? 50 or 60.
 

rexus31

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I've done it. It works fine. In fact, I absolutely agree with the use of thicker facings, as opposed to stacking thinner ones.

Sometimes, a customer cannot afford, or simply does not want to pay, to have the sub-rails extended. In some rare cases, I have actually installed 3/8" thick 50A neoprene facing material.

Of course, it does not play exactly as a properly extended sub-rail plays. But, it isn't nearly as bad as some of you guys would like to suggest. How many have you have actually played on a table that was done in this way?

This table had fairly new cushions, when the new owner purchased it. Rather than spend the additional money on getting the table 'perfect', he opted to spend a fraction, to get the table playable (with the pocket specs that he wanted). When he is ready for new cloth, we will discuss whether he wants to make the investment in extending the sub-rails and replacing the cushions.
54369260_2246603535554614_4664976976203743232_n.jpg

54267956_2246603572221277_6075812692864532480_n.jpg

Geoff, I'm glad it worked out for you and your customer. Yes, I have played on a table with thick facings installed in an effort to tighten the pockets and my experience was terrible. It simply does not play right; balls that hit the facing material where a cushion should be die and do not rebound as they should. This is most noticeable at the side pockets. Personal preference would be to do the job properly. I suppose it is a option if someone is on a budget and they can live with the table not playing right so long as the customer's expectations are properly set.
 

mchnhed

I Came, I Shot, I Choked
Silver Member
Thank you Bradsh98 for your experienced insight on shimming a pocket to save money.
 

jtompilot

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I never said it would play the same.
In fact if you read my reply I state that having the Cushion Points in the proper place after a rail extension is the “correct” way.

I also said that “stacking” shims is wrong, because the two pieces are not Mechanically Connected, causing loss of energy, making a pocket play dead.

Using a thicker, single piece of the same Duro Number neoprene shim material should give you more “acceptable” results, then stacking.


To Stack, Is To Hack!

I wasn’t specifically talking about you but this type of thread is decades old. I know you didn’t say it would play the same, but it’s more than just the points that will play poorly, it’s the whole length of shim that will play poorly. For the most part like I said it’s ok for rotation games but sucks for banks and 1P.
 
Last edited:

mchnhed

I Came, I Shot, I Choked
Silver Member
Geoff, I'm glad it worked out for you and your customer. Yes, I have played on a table with thick facings installed in an effort to tighten the pockets and my experience was terrible. It simply does not play right; balls that hit the facing material where a cushion should be die and do not rebound as they should. This is most noticeable at the side pockets. Personal preference would be to do the job properly. I suppose it is a option if someone is on a budget and they can live with the table not playing right so long as the customer's expectations are properly set.

Again....the pockets probably had “stacked” shims.
Yes, stacked shims will play dead because the two pieces are not mechanically attached to each other.
Glue will not help because it itself absorbs energy.
 

rexus31

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
And, what is that purpose?
What is the standard thickness?
What is the standard Duro? 50 or 60.

IMO, the purpose is to provide an end cap to protect the end of the cushion and an impact barrier to cover the end of the subrail. The neoprene is harder than the cushion yet softer than wood to provide some rebound to allow balls to be pocketed without spitting them out. Pocket angle is also a contributor to spitting balls out but that's a different thread.

Size depends on the application but I believe 3/16" to be the preferred thickness. They come in many sizes and since there is no regulation on this, I think it comes down to personal preference. I believe Diamond uses 3/16".

I've read on here multiple times the preferred hardness is Duro 60 and my mechanic (tablemechanic on AZB) uses Duro 60. Here again, no strict regulation so it comes down to preference.
 

rexus31

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Again....the pockets probably had “stacked” shims.
Yes, stacked shims will play dead because the two pieces are not mechanically attached to each other.
Glue will not help because it itself absorbs energy.

Facings were not stacked on the table I played on.
 

bradsh98

Bradshaw Billiard Service
Silver Member
I almost exclusively use 3/16" 60A neoprene. However, for the rare cases that I use thicker facings, I will use 50A (as it matches the cushion hardness).

1/8" facings are too thin. This is evidenced on any older table that you see. The ends of the rails will be beat up, from repeated ball strikes. 3/16" doesn't completely eliminate this, but it sure helps.
 

CESSNA10

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Thanks for all the info. I really just want to tighten them a bit not radically
 

mchnhed

I Came, I Shot, I Choked
Silver Member
this type of thread is decades old.

The thread about stacking shims and shimming may be hashed over, but the subject of not stacking and using one piece of shim, but thicker I don’t think has been explored.

Otherwise people posting here would have stopped using the terms.....
stacking or adding shims.

To Stack, Is To Hack!
 

Brizzle

Registered
Thanks for all the info. I really just want to tighten them a bit not radically

I bought trainer bumpers off ebay.
I clip these in all 6 pockets.
Go from 5" to 3.5"
Take these off when i have company come over.
People have more fun sinking pockets than missing on a tight table.
When you play its like shooting into buckets.
Then you just handicap your self with others. Like banking everything or shooting opposite hand.
 

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
I bought trainer bumpers off ebay.
I clip these in all 6 pockets.
Go from 5" to 3.5"
Take these off when i have company come over.
People have more fun sinking pockets than missing on a tight table.
When you play its like shooting into buckets.
Then you just handicap your self with others. Like banking everything or shooting opposite hand.

If 4 1/2" pockets are buckets after practicing on your table, you should have no problem taking down ANY major tournaments right?....so which ones have you won??
 

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
The thread about stacking shims and shimming may be hashed over, but the subject of not stacking and using one piece of shim, but thicker I don’t think has been explored.

Otherwise people posting here would have stopped using the terms.....
stacking or adding shims.

To Stack, Is To Hack!

A do you know what's so stupid about this whole "pocket tightening thread"??? Its the FACT that most ALL table manufacturers use the same pocket hardware for the .most part, and therefore to get those corner pockets to be 5" wide in the first place, they use WIDER pocket miter angles.....I don't care WHAT the BCA specs say, no one cares!!! Now, when you start extending those facings or even EXTENDING the sub rails....the MOST IMPORTANT thing to correct is the miter angles, or you're going to tighten the pocket openings for sure, but you're also going to close the throat of the pocket at the same time!!!!
 

fastone371

Certifiable
Silver Member
A standard facing is 60 durometer. The facing serves a purpose and is harder than the cushion by design. If the facing surface has too much rebound it will spit balls out like crazy. There is only one proper way to tighten up pockets and stacking facings isn't it regardless of how soft/hard they are. Don't you think if your theory were plausible it would be in practice? Stack away but the table won't play right. If you want to tighten the pockets you have to extend the subrails and install new rubber. There's no shortcut.

Why is there not a "like" or "I approve of this reply" option here This explains it very nicely. Better than thickly shimmed tables never play right, anyways.
 

fastone371

Certifiable
Silver Member
I have yet to see a 5” Pocket shimmed to 4.5” without it being noticeable. Some are better than others. I had a GC4 that was shimmed to 4.5 and it was done pretty well but it played funny trying those tight 1P banks. For 8&9 ball it was fine.


picture.php


I dont this one looks odd shimmed to 4 3/8", its a GC1 that started life as a 5"-5 1/4" pocket.
 
Top