Stroke follow through for smaller players

Leigh

Registered
Need help on my stroke

Hi, When I address the ball (cue tip right at the ball) and my right hand is directly below my elbow, when I shoot, I have a very short follow through as I am short. If I move my hand back about four inches, I no longer have the "arm perfectly perpendicular to the table at ball address", but I have a much better follow-through and I can move the cue ball around the table around much better.
I don't want to get into any bad habits, but this seems much better for me.
Is there a way to extend my follow-through that I am not thinking of?
Other than that, my stroke is clean, I stay down, slight pause at the back, etc. I just don't have a lot of power.
I have been playing for about a year and I am absolutely in love with this sport.
Thanks for the help.
 
Last edited:

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Hi, When I address the ball (cue tip right at the ball) and my right hand is directly below my elbow, when I shoot, I have a very short follow through as I am short. If I move my hand back about four inches, I no longer have the "arm perfectly perpendicular to the table at ball address", but I have a much better follow-through and I can move the cue ball around the table around much better.
I don't want to get into any bad habits, but this seems much better for me.
Is there a way to extend my follow-through that I am not thinking of?
Other than that, my stroke is clean, I stay down, slight pause at the back, etc. I just don't have a lot of power.
I have been playing for about a year and I am absolutely in love with this sport.
Thanks for the help.

The important thing for moving the cue ball easily is not follow through but rather speed of the cue stick at the instant it contacts the cue ball. Usually that is hurt by moving the arm farther back behind perpendicular.

I suspect that you are stopping your stroke early, which leads to weak shots. It is impossible to tell without seeing your stroke. Can you make a video of you shooting in various ways shot from the side and the front?
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
The important thing for moving the cue ball easily is not follow through but rather speed of the cue stick at the instant it contacts the cue ball. Usually that is hurt by moving the arm farther back behind perpendicular.
I've noticed that moving my grip a little back from perpendicular helps me avoid decelerating before contact. Maybe it's a personal physiology thing? Maybe it wasn't really perpendicular to begin with?

pj
chgo
 

Leigh

Registered
First I would like to say thank you for your incredible generosity to take the time to reply to this post. A little background: I am 50 years old, just started playing a year ago, I immediately bought a table, and joined a house league at the local pool hall. Everyone at the pool hall has been so helpful and welcoming. In nine ball I’m a four (but I think I get lucky and I’m probably more like a three) and in eight ball I’m a four or five... I think four is more accurate. I’m only five one and cross eye dominant. I work a ton and don’t have a lot of time to practice so now that I’m working from home I’m trying to practice as much as possible. I really want to drill down my fundamentals so I don’t have to think about them when I’m playing a game. I’m making my way through Tor Lowery’s pool drills.
Attached are two videos. One shot from the side, one from the front. All criticism on what I am doing wrong is welcome. I just want to get better.
Here are the two videos. The first one is from the side and the second from the front.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5b6d1U1V0Q
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuMXclcJhDg
 

Leigh

Registered
Bob, Thank you for taking the time to reply. I attached some videos in the other post, but I wanted to let you know that I have stalked your pool school online a million times. Someday! Let me know if your company is near Arizona. I would jump at the chance.
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
... Attached are two videos. One shot from the side, one from the front. All criticism on what I am doing wrong is welcome. I just want to get better.
Here are the two videos. The first one is from the side and the second from the front.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5b6d1U1V0Q
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuMXclcJhDg
I don't see anything really wrong with either position.

One problem could be that your cue is too long for you. The standard grip puts your back hand too near the balance point so the tip tends to rise. If you can find a 56-inch cue, see how it feels. Sometimes pool halls have house cues that are a little shorter because the ferrule gets broken off and replaced. Old pool halls are better for this.

As far as the video goes, it looks like you are far from your maximum power. That makes it hard to see a problem. One practice for increasing the power in your stroke is to hit the cue ball straight up and down the center of the table, increasing speed until you can no longer hit it accurately enough to keep it in the center half of the table. You should be able to hit the far rail twice. See if you can get up to hitting the near rail twice with the centering requirement.
 

straightline

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
First thing that jumps out is that you appear to already be under formal instruction. The stance and delivery is one I've seen only a few times. Those guys were all deadly accurate. They were also 6 footers and had no issues with leveraging a cue stick. Make of that what you like.

In the last clip where you shoot directly into the pocket, is the circle the target or just a reference?

What I'd like you to demonstrate is the zone of force where your stroke starts to fail; the problem zone.

I can see working your stroke as is until you can produce the desired force without distortion. This is common in all physical disciplines from Kung Fu to scales on a musical instrument.

I also see that you would probably do better modifying your delivery to produce more force ie. dropping your elbow as you go through the ball. This is a kind of active rather than passive follow through and involves both the bicep and tricep. That's another technique in itself and no doubt conflicts with your current method so; grain of salt...

Practice stroking in slow motion. Use a dot as a target. Just think linear.
 

BilliardsAbout

BondFanEvents.com
Silver Member
Hi, When I address the ball (cue tip right at the ball) and my right hand is directly below my elbow, when I shoot, I have a very short follow through as I am short. If I move my hand back about four inches, I no longer have the "arm perfectly perpendicular to the table at ball address", but I have a much better follow-through and I can move the cue ball around the table around much better.
I don't want to get into any bad habits, but this seems much better for me.
Is there a way to extend my follow-through that I am not thinking of?
Other than that, my stroke is clean, I stay down, slight pause at the back, etc. I just don't have a lot of power.
I have been playing for about a year and I am absolutely in love with this sport.
Thanks for the help.

The precept is lower arm perpendicular to the cue stick, not the "table".
 

goettlicher

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
First I would like to say thank you for your incredible generosity to take the time to reply to this post. A little background: I am 50 years old, just started playing a year ago, I immediately bought a table, and joined a house league at the local pool hall. Everyone at the pool hall has been so helpful and welcoming. In nine ball I’m a four (but I think I get lucky and I’m probably more like a three) and in eight ball I’m a four or five... I think four is more accurate. I’m only five one and cross eye dominant. I work a ton and don’t have a lot of time to practice so now that I’m working from home I’m trying to practice as much as possible. I really want to drill down my fundamentals so I don’t have to think about them when I’m playing a game. I’m making my way through Tor Lowery’s pool drills.
Attached are two videos. One shot from the side, one from the front. All criticism on what I am doing wrong is welcome. I just want to get better.
Here are the two videos. The first one is from the side and the second from the front.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5b6d1U1V0Q
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuMXclcJhDg



Love your stroke. Keep working on it.

You need help on two things.

1. Eye pattern.
2. Rhythm.

Good luck
randyg
 

Leigh

Registered
Hi Randy,
Thank you for the feedback. I recently changed my eye pattern to focus mostly on the object ball... but I struggle when I am doing drills with no object ball. I have a sticker near the pocket so I have a place to focus, but I was definitely forgetting.
Thank you again.
 

goettlicher

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Hi Randy,
Thank you for the feedback. I recently changed my eye pattern to focus mostly on the object ball... but I struggle when I am doing drills with no object ball. I have a sticker near the pocket so I have a place to focus, but I was definitely forgetting.
Thank you again.

Steady out that warm up routine also. I like where you are headed.
I will be in your area this Summer, hope we can meet up.

randyg
 

Scott Lee

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Hello Leigh...Like my fellow SPF instructor randyg said, you have some "good bones" (read: process) already, and are heading in the right direction. All you need is a little direction, and some better progressive drills, like the SPF Mother Drills, to help you master your process. I like the way you swing your cue...pulling all the way back slowly, with a nice brief pause at the transition from backswing to forward stroke...and a smooth accelerated movement through the CB. Start using just stripes for your drill, and put the stripe exactly upright. Then you can measure how straight your stroke is by making the stripe roll like a tire into the pocket. Then learn to do it at different speeds, from a lag all the way to a break speed stroke.

Your real problem is that you don't know where your personal finish point is (where the tip finishes on the cloth when your cradle hand finishes at your breast (which you should be figuring out how that works for you, since it's different for every woman because of body orientation to the shot, body size and shape...we're all different). Once you can measure your finish, your brain can train your arm to deliver the cuestick in a straight line to the same finish position every time...even on the break, and on a lag! You can't fix what you don't know about (you don't know what you don't know) ...you can't fix something you can't measure...and you can only fix one thing at a time.

Now, here's some accurate video analysis from your videos, which you did a great job with btw! :thumbup: That shows me that you know how to follow directions well! :thumbup: No matter who the teacher is, it's the effort by the student where the rubber meets the road.

First, your cuestick is nowhere near level (it may seem like only a little to you, but just the mild elevation you have will result in an 18% probability of some sort of error (forced or unforced). Lowering your cue will also result in you getting more speed, because you won't be shooting "into the cloth" as much. Here's what you do...rest the cue on the rail, put your bridge hand where you're comfortable away from the CB. With the tip touching the CB, measure the distance between where the stick crosses your hand, right up to the CB. This is your natural bridge length (we all have one, if you know how to measure it). Don't guess...use a ruler or tape measure. Check where you're supposed to hold your cue, when the forearm is perpendicular to the cuestick. In your two 'grip' examples neither one has any relevance to "hitting the ball harder", as that is only related to how fast you move the cue forward, trying to keep muscle tension to a minimum (many players and instructors refer to this as 'throwing the cue').

The glaring error in your grip that jumped out at me was your wrist cock. You want your wrist to hang in a straight line with your forearm, so you can make the quick transition to a power stroke, with no breakdown in routine. The cocked wrist makes it much more difficult to have a smooth transition, especially on faster strokes. Like has been mentioned in other posts, you really want to hit the CB at the bottom of the swing, so that you can build timing into muscle memory, and learn how to move the cue the same way for all speeds. (I teach 10, for example...a 1 is a lag, and a 10 is a break). The key is to be able to do all 10 with the same process/routine... the personal eye pattern (PEP) is a big part of this.

When you finish your stroke to your boob, you can swing the cue at any forward speed, with no tension on the grip, because your body 'catches' the cue, making the finish or follow through the same for every shot. That is also measurable...measure how far the tip goes past the CB, measuring from the front edge, not the backside). It doesn't matter if it's only a couple of inches (barely through the CB) or 8-10". It's what's natural for you with no elbow drop. People who equate following through farther with more power don't know what they're talking about. The CB is gone in 1/1000th of a second, whether you follow through 1 inch or 3 feet! Again, with a pendulum stroke like you already mostly have, you just need to fill in the numbers, so you can create an accurate, repeatable routine that you can train into a monster!

Since we're both stuck at home, if you'd like to talk pool, be at your table, and give me a call! 773-551-7473

Scott Lee
2019 PBIA Instructor of the Year
Director, SPF National Pool School Tour



First I would like to say thank you for your incredible generosity to take the time to reply to this post. A little background: I am 50 years old, just started playing a year ago, I immediately bought a table, and joined a house league at the local pool hall. Everyone at the pool hall has been so helpful and welcoming. In nine ball I’m a four (but I think I get lucky and I’m probably more like a three) and in eight ball I’m a four or five... I think four is more accurate. I’m only five one and cross eye dominant. I work a ton and don’t have a lot of time to practice so now that I’m working from home I’m trying to practice as much as possible. I really want to drill down my fundamentals so I don’t have to think about them when I’m playing a game. I’m making my way through Tor Lowery’s pool drills.
Attached are two videos. One shot from the side, one from the front. All criticism on what I am doing wrong is welcome. I just want to get better.
Here are the two videos. The first one is from the side and the second from the front.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5b6d1U1V0Q
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuMXclcJhDg
 
Last edited:

straightline

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It's what's natural for you with no elbow drop. People who equate following through farther with more power don't know what they're talking about. The CB is gone in 1/1000th of a second, whether you follow through 1 inch or 3 feet! Again, with a pendulum stroke like you already mostly have, you just need to fill in the numbers, so you can create an accurate, repeatable routine that you can train into a monster!

Maybe you should make sure your shots have the right english on 'em. Follow through and force go hand in hand. If you anticipate a short follow through such as, your arm is too short, (this is a considerable body of players) then you are not mentally prepared to produce sufficient cue speed. The main reason for the elbow drop should be obvious. Most arms aren't long enough to produce the required range of force without undue strain especially with the elbow folding on itself with nowhere to go. A long windup and full follow through provide the widest range of speed and touch.
 

Scott Lee

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Sorry straightline, but the weight of the cue, and really good timing, with a relaxed grip are the only elements that matter. What I have bolded in your post is false information. How far you follow through has no bearing on how much speed can be generated with a pendulum stroke. The tip is only in contact with the CB for a quarter of an eyeblink (.001 seconds, no matter whether you use a pendulum or piston (elbow drop) stroke), and then it is gone...so following through more will not result in any effective change in speed or force.

For the huge majority of amateur pool players, the pendulum stroke is the perfect representation of accuracy and repeatability. Can you "force" the stick through the CB? Certainly, but most will have difficulty with speed control and grip pressure. I realize you're "old school" all the way, but you should realize that there may be better ways these days to achieve a goal. For this player, I have given her clear-cut instructions on how to create a great process...and offered to talk her through it on the phone, if she chooses to call.

Scott Lee
2019 PBIA Instructor of the Year
Director, SPF National Pool School Tour

Maybe you should make sure your shots have the right english on 'em. Follow through and force go hand in hand. If you anticipate a short follow through such as, your arm is too short, (this is a considerable body of players) then you are not mentally prepared to produce sufficient cue speed. The main reason for the elbow drop should be obvious. Most arms aren't long enough to produce the required range of force without undue strain especially with the elbow folding on itself with nowhere to go. A long windup and full follow through provide the widest range of speed and touch.
 

straightline

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Sorry straightline, but the weight of the cue, and really good timing, with a relaxed grip are the only elements that matter. What I have bolded in your post is false information. How far you follow through has no bearing on how much speed can be generated with a pendulum stroke. The tip is only in contact with the CB for a quarter of an eyeblink (.001 seconds, no matter whether you use a pendulum or piston (elbow drop) stroke), and then it is gone...so following through more will not result in any effective change in speed or force.

For the huge majority of amateur pool players, the pendulum stroke is the perfect representation of accuracy and repeatability. Can you "force" the stick through the CB? Certainly, but most will have difficulty with speed control and grip pressure. I realize you're "old school" all the way, but you should realize that there may be better ways these days to achieve a goal. For this player, I have given her clear-cut instructions on how to create a great process...and offered to talk her through it on the phone, if she chooses to call.

You read with your ego or you are simply incorrect. How far you are ABLE to follow through has everything to do with how hard you will hit. As far as your textbook facts, they aren't pertinent to this point nor a physique limited stroke. Skewing semantically is something I would expect from customer service and not an instructor...
 

BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
Gold Member
Silver Member
You read with your ego or you are simply incorrect. How far you are ABLE to follow through has everything to do with how hard you will hit. As far as your textbook facts, they aren't pertinent to this point nor a physique limited stroke. Skewing semantically is something I would expect from customer service and not an instructor...

I think you and Scott are both correct, but you're each talking about different parts of the stroke. Like Scott said, cue weight and timing (as it relates to maximum or optimal speed) is what determines cb striking power. You are correct in associating greater follow through with greater power. The difference is....what Scott is talking about is the cause, and what you're talking about is the effect. In other words, a longer follow through doesn't produce more power or optimal timing, but it can be the result of these things.

Simply allowing the cue to naturally come to a stop at the end of the stroke is much better than consciously trying to stop or slow the follow through after cb impact. With the correct timing, max or optimal cue speed should be reached as the tip strikes the cb, then a natural deceleration of the cue occurs with the follow through. I believe what you're saying is, by utilizing a good follow through it helps ensure optimal cue stick speed when the tip strikes the cb. Or did you mean something different?
 
Top