What is missing in Cuemaking

bstroud · Sep 28, 2010

Cuemaking is a hybrid of sorts. It is a combination of art and craft.

The craft side has evolved to the point that perfection in construction and execution is possible.

The art side seems to be stuck in the past. How many more cues with points or boxes and inlayed with diamonds and dots will be made. Sure there is a place for cues like this. It's called a MUSEUM.

Why don't more cuemakers try something new and different? The apparent reason is that most, if not all, lack any formal art training.

I am approached frequently by people wanting to become cuemakers. They want to know about machines and software. I tell them all the same thing. Go to art school. Learn to design properly. Then become a cuemaker. That is what the industry needs.

I know that I along with a few other cuemakers have struggled long and hard to become better designers. It's not easy. I takes lots of time. The results are worth it.

It saddens me to see so many cuemakers with obvious talent succumb to cliches like "I like traditional cues". What they are really saying is either "I am afraid to try something new" or I'm doing just fine making what I am".

Either way it is a cop out.

Can the situation be changed for the better? Perhaps. The collectors' show that I started is one way and it is having a positive effect. More artistic cues are created every day just for that show.

The main way however is for you ( the buying public) to demand more of your cuemaker. Push on them for something new and different. Get them out of their comfort zone.They WILL respond with something special!

Sincerely,

Bill Stroud

Winston846 · Sep 28, 2010

While I'm not a cuemaker, I can say that there truly are people out there who like "traditional cues". I being one of them. In fact, I recently had a cue made where I specifically instructed the cuemaker that I wanted it to look like it was made in 1965.

Not saying there's anything wrong with trying new things, but I for one don't like a lot of fancy things in a cue and truly am a traditionalist.

KSwiss10 · Sep 28, 2010

Traditional

I too am a fan of traditional cues. My cue is as plain as they come in the looks department. It is a Jacoby and is just a solid piece of cocobola with an Irish linen wrap. A few silver rings at the joints is as vancy as it needs to be. Also all that "art" adds a lot of time to the construction process and money when someone goes to purchase a cue.

My cue may look plain but it is a custom from Jacoby and plays great, and I didn't have to spend a lot of money to get it.

I think it would be cool to see some cue makers try different things but it's not for everybody.

bstroud · Sep 28, 2010

Winston846 said:
While I'm not a cuemaker, I can say that there truly are people out there who like "traditional cues". I being one of them. In fact, I recently had a cue made where I specifically instructed the cuemaker that I wanted it to look like it was made in 1965.

Not saying there's anything wrong with trying new things, but I for one don't like a lot of fancy things in a cue and truly am a traditionalist.

Winston,

You are the exact type of person I was trying to attract with this post.

There is nothing wrong with liking "traditional" cue designs but I would imagine that you are no long using "rabbit ears" to watch TV.

The point I'm trying to make here is that cuemakers just need to move on.
They need to try new things and it is people like you that can push them to do so. Give it a try next time. Perhaps you can find a bridge between a modern and a traditional design the you would like even more.

Thanks for your reply,

Bill Stroud

Hierovision · Sep 28, 2010

I ordered a cue from Chuck Starkey based on multiple pieces of mesquite and asked him for a Native American theme to the cue. I know this has been done before, but it's far from traditional. He also has expressed ideas for brand new designs, and is very excited about it. I'd like to think I'm doing my part with my first custom-ordered cue to promote new design

While I don't dislike traditional cues, I would never order one new from the cuemaker.

bstroud · Sep 28, 2010

KSwiss10 said:
I too am a fan of traditional cues. My cue is as plain as they come in the looks department. It is a Jacoby and is just a solid piece of cocobola with an Irish linen wrap. A few silver rings at the joints is as vancy as it needs to be. Also all that "art" adds a lot of time to the construction process and money when someone goes to purchase a cue.

My cue may look plain but it is a custom from Jacoby and plays great, and I didn't have to spend a lot of money to get it.

I think it would be cool to see some cue makers try different things but it's not for everybody.

I find it interesting that you claim to be a traditionalist but I noticed that you play with an OB1 shaft. Hardly a traditional approach.

There is a clear distinction between design and technology however and perhaps one day you will make the leap in design and try something a bit different.

Thanks for your reply,

Bill Stroud

Spimp13 · Sep 28, 2010

I am all for this. I check the gallery frequently to see what is posted and it is rare for something deemed "new" or even a cue constructed with a non-traditional technique being made. Recently Mr. Marshall posted some cues on here with a new approach to cue making and it is unique and I liked seeing it. I would love to see some more out of the box cues being made. I do think customers are afraid to request these things or even some cuemakers deny these requests possibly. I would like to hear feedback from other cuemakers in this thread. Maybe on my next cue I will come up with something to try.

Quesports · Sep 28, 2010

Shaft technology

Hello Mr Stroud,
About two years ago I spoke with a very well known cuemaker about new cue shaft technology and it's correlation to golf shafts in particular. The converstaion came about because I wanted him to build me a cue with two of his shafts and also an aftermarket new shaft made by another company. He was not very receptive to using the other companies shaft but I persisted. He is a golfer so I pointed out all the new golf shaft technology that has evolved in the last ten years or so. He finally agreed that the new golf shafts are an improvement over the hickory shafts I used as a kid! After hearing me out we did finally come to an agreement and everything worked out. I was somewhat surprised at the coaxing I had to do to convince him that sometimes new technology does work. Hopefully other cuemakers will embrace and experiment with new products and the billiard industry will benefit as a whole.
Dan

63Kcode · Sep 28, 2010

bstroud said:
The main way however is for you ( the buying public) to demand more of your cuemaker. Push on them for something new and different. Get them out of their comfort zone.They WILL respond with something special!

Sincerely,

Bill Stroud

Carefull what you ask for. This is what happened when I let the customer have what he wanted. Warning these pics can cause monitor damage.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=202930

It has been fun doing something off the wall though.

Larry

RRfireblade · Sep 28, 2010

You build what the customer wants.

Pool is a traditional game and the meat and potatos buyers seem to prefer designs that look like a pool cue. That's what sells , that's what they ask for.

This also why most tables are also made using tradational materials , designs and colors. That's what sells, so that's what is made.

Different alone is not "Art" , New alone is not "Art". "Art" only sells if someone buys it , otherwise "Art" is just a museum piece.

book collector · Sep 28, 2010

What is missing

Thanks Mr. Stroud, I was thinking about this just the other day. I was looking at cues with the idea of buying a new playing cue. What I saw was about 6 designs with minor variations from 10 different cuemakers and the prices went from $800.00 to $3000.00 depending on who made the cue. They were the same designs from the 60s and 70s. They were beautiful cues but I am ready for change also. I remember when Mike Shamus put the book out that showed some of the old Maces with the inlaid scenes and I saw a couple of scrimshaw cues that I would love to own.
Not every cuemaker is going to have that artistic ability but what would be wrong with going to an art class at a University and asking students for some design ideas and giving a cash prize for the ones you use. Maybe you could have them do something on a regular basis. Good Luck and thanks for all the great work you have done. If you do something like what I described I hope you will give me first chance at it , thanks.

ridinda9 · Sep 28, 2010

63Kcode said:
Carefull what you ask for. This is what happened when I let the customer have what he wanted. Warning these pics can cause monitor damage.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=202930

It has been fun doing something off the wall though.

Larry

LOVE that duct tape wrap !

bstroud · Sep 28, 2010

RRfireblade said:
You build what the customer wants.

Pool is a traditional game and the meat and potatos buyers seem to prefer designs that look like a pool cue. That's what sells , that's what they ask for.

This also why most tables are also made using tradational materials , designs and colors. That's what sells, so that's what is made.

Different alone is not "Art" , New alone is not "Art". "Art" only sells if someone buys it , otherwise "Art" is just a museum piece.

I you are only making cues because "that's what sells" you might try some other line of work before you go crazy.

Bill Stroud

bobalouiecda · Sep 28, 2010

Selling Functional Art

Bill: I have been struggling with the same problem since the middle seventies. I have designed, fabricated, and installed many thousands of Stained Glass panels in the last 33 years. Although the mix of art and fabrication are twofold, the ultimate goal was to enjoy the process and create new and different art pieces. It took less than two years to fully understand that what the public wants to buy and what I prefer to create are totally different. Most buyers are extremely conservative. Consequently, the majority of my work has been unfulfilling and boring, but has afforded me a decent living. The only Stained Glass artists who can think outside the box and make money are the very few famous artists who rarely do their own fabricating. Bob H

14oneman · Sep 28, 2010

bstroud said:
Why don't more cuemakers try something new and different? The apparent reason is that most, if not all, lack any formal art training.

I think it's because there are a lot of people, like myself, that love the "old school" look. Personally, I can't stand some of the "modern" designs that I have seen. Give me a 4-6 point cue, with veneers and inlays, and a wrap, and I'm happy. Apparently there are a lot of folks out there who feel the same way.

That's why Baskin-Robbins makes 31 flavors. :wink:

Winston846 · Sep 28, 2010

bstroud said:
Winston,

You are the exact type of person I was trying to attract with this post.

There is nothing wrong with liking "traditional" cue designs but I would imagine that you are no long using "rabbit ears" to watch TV.

The point I'm trying to make here is that cuemakers just need to move on.
They need to try new things and it is people like you that can push them to do so. Give it a try next time. Perhaps you can find a bridge between a modern and a traditional design the you would like even more.

Thanks for your reply,

Bill Stroud

As far as art goes, maybe. But I would be against any technological advances to the cue (low-deflection shafts, "hybrid" cues, etc.). With all the technological advances in golf clubs, practically everyone is driving the ball 300 yards now - just swing the club, it does the rest of the work. With all the technological advances in bowling balls, practically everyone is averaging over 200 now - just roll the ball, it does the rest of the work. I would hate to see pool become that way.

My "1965" cue is also as simple as they get. Purpleheart spliced into straight maple (4-points) with a single black veneer, plain beige Irish linen wrap, plain purpleheart butt-sleve, plain white butt-cap with a rubber bumper, stainless joint with plain black collars. For its simplicity, I've received many comments on it and it hits better than any cue I've ever owned. Simple looks and function... that's all I look for.

bstroud · Sep 28, 2010

bobalouiecda said:
Bill: I have been struggling with the same problem since the middle seventies. I have designed, fabricated, and installed many thousands of Stained Glass panels in the last 33 years. Although the mix of art and fabrication are twofold, the ultimate goal was to enjoy the process and create new and different art pieces. It took less than two years to fully understand that what the public wants to buy and what I prefer to create are totally different. Most buyers are extremely conservative. Consequently, the majority of my work has been unfulfilling and boring, but has afforded me a decent living. The only Stained Glass artists who can think outside the box and make money are the very few famous artists who rarely do their own fabricating. Bob H

Bob,

I didn't think that cuemaking was the only craft/art that has this problem.

It's common in the art world as well. It is a thankless job for an art gallery to convince a client to try something new and different.

But in the art world at least a big part of the thrill of collecting is in the discovery of emerging artists that have something new to say through their work. This is why the cuemaking world is so frustrating for me. I have attempted through the cue show to introduce the collectors to new cuemakers and new designs that are not "traditional" in the usual sense. On the contrary, most of the designs submitted are new and fresh. It is these designs that attract the collectors and the press.

For the past few years I have commissioned a "theme" collection and the results have been remarkable. It is so interesting to see what the same idea translates into by the various cuemakers involved.

I feel that cuemaking and cue collecting is on the verge of an explosion of creativity and fresh ideas. That's the main reason I would like to see the "traditional" designs find their rightful place in history.

As I end my career, I can only hope and attempt to promote a breakthrough that will give rise to a new generation of artists that are also cuemakers.

Bill Stroud

LGSM3 · Sep 28, 2010

Bill, if it makes you feel any better i have a whole stack of garbage that is a result of my imagination. I'm proud of the garbage as some of it has turned out pretty cool, but will take alot of perfecting. I agree with your post 100%. Some guys will continue to build 4 point cues and thats fine, maybe thats what they enjoy and they will probably be good at it.

I sometimes have so many new ideas that it becomes a hendrance. Had to just start writing it all down and drawing pictures, my brain became so clouded. As far as formal art training...i may feel differently, i think you either have it or you don't.

Blue Hog ridr · Sep 28, 2010

With all due respect Bill, my main player is a BBC house cue conversion.
One of the best descriptions that I heard at the hall was, "Thats an elegant looking cue".

I fully understand and appreciate what you are saying. Green dragons and silver vines make for an interesting design, but do little to make balls go into a pocket. And thats pretty much all I'm interested in, making balls fall into pockets the best way I know how.

I have 2 lathes and I do know the extent of my artistic ability. CNC is something that interests me greatly, as I do have an IT background so the programming part is within my grasp, (maybe, maybe not) but alas, I'll be long gone before I ever afford a set up that will allow me to go beyond traditional.

And the truth is, I like traditional. If I ever get to the point where I'm proficient at points and veneers, I'll die a happy repairman.

And no one uses rabbit ears any longer. When it comes to new technology we all want the newest and best.
Funny tho, ever notice how many places are selling reproductions of old furniture, I think they call it Art Deco or something like that.

Kickin' Chicken · Sep 28, 2010

bstroud said:
Cuemaking is a hybrid of sorts. It is a combination of art and craft.

The craft side has evolved to the point that perfection in construction and execution is possible.

The art side seems to be stuck in the past. How many more cues with points or boxes and inlayed with diamonds and dots will be made. Sure there is a place for cues like this. It's called a MUSEUM.

Why don't more cuemakers try something new and different? The apparent reason is that most, if not all, lack any formal art training.

I am approached frequently by people wanting to become cuemakers. They want to know about machines and software. I tell them all the same thing. Go to art school. Learn to design properly. Then become a cuemaker. That is what the industry needs.

I know that I along with a few other cuemakers have struggled long and hard to become better designers. It's not easy. I takes lots of time. The results are worth it.

It saddens me to see so many cuemakers with obvious talent succumb to cliches like "I like traditional cues". What they are really saying is either "I am afraid to try something new" or I'm doing just fine making what I am".

Either way it is a cop out.

Can the situation be changed for the better? Perhaps. The collectors' show that I started is one way and it is having a positive effect. More artistic cues are created every day just for that show.

The main way however is for you ( the buying public) to demand more of your cuemaker. Push on them for something new and different. Get them out of their comfort zone.They WILL respond with something special!

Sincerely,

Bill Stroud

Hello Mr. Stroud;

I am a fan of your work and consider you to be on the very short list of the best cuemakers of all time.

I recall your chiming in not too long ago when a young new cuemaker (Marshall Piercy) began posting some pics of his uniquely-styled cue designs here on azb. You encouraged his outside the box thinking. I applaud you for that nice gesture. :thumbup::clapping:

I also applaud you for encouraging us, the buying public, to try to get cuemakers "out of their comfort zone" with what they build for us.

I wonder what you would consider to be outside of your comfort zone. And would you be willing to go there at this point in your career?

I'd be willing to put money where my beak is to see... :wink: Seriously... :smile:

Thank you for your huge contribution to our sport and, in particular, cuemaking.

Best,
Brian kc

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