Of course, from my understanding Cliff was not at the top of his game in '93 either....I think in the late 90's it would have been a much closer match...Like 8 to 7 and Efren would not have just sailed through it.
Richie Richeson vs. Scott Frost
- Thread starter miscrewed89
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Of course, from my understanding Cliff was not at the top of his game in '93 either....I think in the late 90's it would have been a much closer match...Like 8 to 7 and Efren would not have just sailed through it.
The problem with basing an opinion on those videos is the best stuff was not captured on video. These older guys who were there, sitting on the front row, inhaling the smoke from the cigarettes and cigars these players smoked, they have seen first hand what these guys could do! I never saw Ronnie play in person. If I had to form an opinion based on his videos and what I've seen in person, I would say Efren by far is/was the better player. But I wasn't there to see Ronnie. So honestly, I don't really know.
Today it seems everything is caught on video. From the 2 guys who can't play a lick but they're betting $300/game to champions matching up in hidden dive bars, it seems live streams and folks with their phones are capturing every great shot and money match! 15 years ago and back there was much more action off camera than on camera. Technology was way too bulky to be there to catch everything so much of what these guys did has become legend or folklore. Only those who were there can testify. That's difficult for this technology-dependent generation to comprehend.
Old Nine Baller
Banned
I could be remembering wrong but I think in the late 90's when Cliff was at his best Efren did give him 8-7.
ONB
There are probably over 100 people in the US alone that could beat the game played by either player in the 1989 match between DD and RA. That's how much the game has changed in25 years. Both players were only in their early fifties. Ask John Henderson (70's) or Jerry Matchin (60's) if they could beat the game displayed in 89. Video is more accurate than memory.
There is no video of Ronnie at his peak in the late 60's, 70's and early 80's. By 1985 his game had slipped a ball or so. The last time he played good was the match with Danny in 1988 and even then he was at maybe 80-85% of his top speed.
I don't vote with my heart when it comes to betting on pool games. There has been more than once that I opted out of a bet because I didn't like it. At least twice in the last two years I told Dennis I didn't want a piece of a game he had made.
In the early 2000's I believe Efren gave Cliff 9-7 at DCC, and I think he won. Maybe someone on here watched that game. I know they played a long time.
I will only add this fuel to the fire. Efren and Ronnie before him were the two most creative players I ever saw play One Pocket. And better yet they made their shots work! It's hard to pick a winner between them and in truth it could have gone either way. But if anyone thinks Ronnie didn't have the game to play Efren heads up they are sadly mistaken.
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It was Derby City 2004 Cliff got 9 to 7 & was beaten. It wasn't the 1st or last time he was beat with that spot. Cliff spotted Frost a ball at that time & also spotted him at DCC 2006 that i was at. Cliff won both times. The Cliff I saw then was better than Scott was then or now imo.
Old Nine Baller
Banned
I don't think that anyone would ever accuse Arthur Bodendorfer of voting with his heart and not his head.
I didn't notice him mentioning Frost or DiLiberto.
Artie Bodendorfer said:
I watched part of that game. I think it was only a ball and something like 9/8-8/7. I know they had one game which lasted several hours.
There was a lot of buzz about it. I think it was 2004. Someone commented that there was more people watching Cliff and Efren play than would watch the tournament. It was standing room only and they played in the main room on a table just along the first row of tables closest to the door.
The debate about Ronnie/Efren reminds me of when Buddy barbecued Efren in a 10 ahead set at Reds after Efren had taken out Sigel and many other top pros heads up. Buddy told me once on a drive that he had told Bustamante, Parica and Efren that all three of them could play for 10k each if they made a game where all three of them would play him one after the other. He said none of their backers ever stepped up to make that game. Whether or not they could beat Buddy I think all of them knew that for the chips playing Buddy was at best a coin flip.
To me the only thing that maybe gives Efren the edge in one pocket against Ronnie would have been Efren's carom knowledge. But back in the 60s and out in California it's not inconceivable that Ronnie Allen had a fair bit of carom knowledge as well.
Players can be quite surprising with what they know. One time I was trying to win a cheap carom cue and you had to run three points and i kept dogging it. Shawn Putnam says to me that he has played a lot of three cushion and I say go win me a cue. He goes over and runs 5 or 6 first try.
Old Nine Baller
Banned
Well, at least my memory isn't totally shot
. I don't remember Reyes ever giving Cliff 9-7.ONB
With all due respect...not true - that was their usual game back then....back at that time I watched Cliff give Richie 8-7 at the U.S. Open One Pocket in Kalamazoo, and also at Grady's Legends of O.P. in South Carolina in 2002.
On another note...it's always laughable/disingenuous in the extreme to me, when guys give an opinion on who was the better One Pocket player between two players - and one of the two players they have never seen play....such as when many people give an opinion on how good Ronnie or Artie were, but have never seen them play in their prime - what a joke. As for comparing Ronnie to Efren as to who played better, or if it would be a pick-it..one of the few people qualified to have a solid/valid opinion on that, would be John Henderson - he's seen them both play at their peak, many, many times.
- Ghost
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Thanks for the confirmation on this.
And this from one of the most astute handicappers ever to play the game.
Actually it was never gonna be at Buffalo's. Primarily because the match was never "ON", posted, until last week.
The primary reason it will be at Lacy's is because Buffalo didn't want a stream. Whatever his reasons are his own and I respect that.
The match gets money added from the stream and it's a fair amount.
Regarding Lacy's charging for VIP seat. They have one of the nicest rooms in the country. They are making some major accomodations for the players and the fans to be able to sweat this match in style. You will be able to see the match in comfort for free or you can pay a really low price for a seat.
VIP seats at the big Smokin Aces event are $100. for 3 days. and every seat is sold out. Many people also enjoyed the matches for free but were not guaranteed a seat.
Ray
Old Nine Baller
Banned
Maybe when I sat there and heard Cliff tell RR "no" it was just my imagination. I think Cliff knew his shoulder was becoming a problem at about this time. I do remember RR telling Cliff that RR had lost the last time they played.
ONB
The one i saw there with Efren winning was a race to 8. 8-7-Efren won with one ball left on the table (pretty sure). Efren won with a 3-4 railer avoiding a collision with the CB mid table just before the Ob made it way to his pocket. This probably would have been the 4th or 5th year of the DCC