From China, and you won't believe this...

Varney Cues · Jul 9, 2006

Well we all now know about the cues made in China. But you guys won't believe this...again from a very reliable source in the industry. I've known for quite a while that the Valley house cues are now made in China, says so on the sticker. Used to you could see huge differences in the woods used on the Valleys, even a few purpleheart and such. And they had the old fiber ferrules too. Now they all look the same, brown wood, and have plastic ferrules. Often the points are "painted" to try and even them up and weight bolts are often not centered causing them to "hop" as they roll. Sticker says "made in China"...guess where they are really made? Go ahead and guess...I'll give you ten tries...LOL!
The cues are made on a ship on the way here from China. Thats right, made on a boat. Seems for some tax/duty/tariff whatever reasons...they deemed it cheaper to actually make the cues on a ship. So if you are a big U.S. distributor and order some cases of Valley bar cues...they fire up the ship and they are constructed in route. What next?

rackem · Jul 9, 2006

Actually the way I have heard it is. The cues that are being made in China are not made with Chineese wood. The wood is shipped to China. While the wood is on the way to China the manufacturing process begins. That's right there are milling machines on the boats. The blanks are being cut as the wood is on the way to China. As far as the product being finished on the way back, I find that hard to believe.

JoeyInCali · Jul 9, 2006

They've been making them for a while.
From what I understand a foreign ship buys the maple logs then cuts them right there on the ship. Bypassing US tax and labor laws then ships the boards to China on the same boat.
Edwin Bandido can shed more light to this rumor.

onepocketchump · Jul 9, 2006

Varney Cues said:
Well we all now know about the cues made in China. But you guys won't believe this...again from a very reliable source in the industry. I've known for quite a while that the Valley house cues are now made in China, says so on the sticker. Used to you could see huge differences in the woods used on the Valleys, even a few purpleheart and such. And they had the old fiber ferrules too. Now they all look the same, brown wood, and have plastic ferrules. Often the points are "painted" to try and even them up and weight bolts are often not centered causing them to "hop" as they roll. Sticker says "made in China"...guess where they are really made? Go ahead and guess...I'll give you ten tries...LOL!
The cues are made on a ship on the way here from China. Thats right, made on a boat. Seems for some tax/duty/tariff whatever reasons...they deemed it cheaper to actually make the cues on a ship. So if you are a big U.S. distributor and order some cases of Valley bar cues...they fire up the ship and they are constructed in route. What next?

You are out of your mind. I don't believe this for a second. There is NO DUTY AT ALL for pool cues so there is no reason to "make them on a ship" even if that were true.

Also, even if the cue were made at sea, who cares? The US Navy maintains a precision machine shop on every large ship that can produce high end machine parts in high seas. Where does my info come from? A Navy machinist with 12 years of service.

Quit being a mudslinger.

John

Sometimes I really wonder about you Kevin.

Do you have any proof of this or is something you heard from some other loony nut job?

smittie1984 · Jul 9, 2006

I believe that's also why they only cost $6 each at retail. If your a pool hall and your sticks always get destroyed it's not a bad idea to have those.

Now for my political side. I believe if we were to adopt a consumption tax compared to an income tax and eliminate tariffs on imports than many of these manufactures would come here because America would be the world's most biggest and most powerful tax haven.

Varney Cues · Jul 9, 2006

onepocketchump said:
Do you have any proof of this or is something you heard from some other loony nut job?

No one here cares about your Navy time. I guess since you work for Fury you have all the answers. I'll too be sure and tell them you called them "loony nut jobs"...this was only told to me by the mgr. of Brady Dist. The largest distributor of Valley products in the area. A poolroom owner was waiting for their shipment of new Valley house cues and what I said was explained as the reason. I don't believe a man in his postion has any reason to fabricate that and pass it along to his customers.
You should check facts before you start name calling.

Timberly · Jul 9, 2006

They're house cues, not "custom" cues. The majority of the folks that use them don't have the 1st clue how to respect a cue. They bang them on the edges of the table when they miss, they drop them, burn them with cigarettes, play swords... I could care less if they're made on a ship. If I were a pool room owner, I would be grateful for anything they do to defray the cost of something that I must have and something that is going to be abused as they are.

John did make a good point....There are very well run precision machine shops run on ships all over the ocean. If the US Navy trusts these shops to do repairs on the fighter jets that are docked on these ships, I don't think I'm going to lose too much sleep because the house cues at my local pool hall were built on a ship.

strtshtr · Jul 9, 2006

manufacturing costs

Varney Cues said:
Well we all now know about the cues made in China. But you guys won't believe this...again from a very reliable source in the industry. I've known for quite a while that the Valley house cues are now made in China, says so on the sticker. Used to you could see huge differences in the woods used on the Valleys, even a few purpleheart and such. And they had the old fiber ferrules too. Now they all look the same, brown wood, and have plastic ferrules. Often the points are "painted" to try and even them up and weight bolts are often not centered causing them to "hop" as they roll. Sticker says "made in China"...guess where they are really made? Go ahead and guess...I'll give you ten tries...LOL!
The cues are made on a ship on the way here from China. Thats right, made on a boat. Seems for some tax/duty/tariff whatever reasons...they deemed it cheaper to actually make the cues on a ship. So if you are a big U.S. distributor and order some cases of Valley bar cues...they fire up the ship and they are constructed in route. What next?

Sorry. I don't buy this for a second. The costs of manufacturing on board ship are many times what they are on mainland China. This would be an extremely expensive way to manufacture.
Every square foot on board ship is extremely valuable. The amount of space required for storage of raw material, machining, finishing, drying, etc. would all be very costly compared to the same operation on land. These operations would all be occupying valuable space otherwise utilized for freight.
I can think of no logical reason for manufacturing in transit.

unknownpro · Jul 9, 2006

smittie1984 said:
I believe that's also why they only cost $6 each at retail. If your a pool hall and your sticks always get destroyed it's not a bad idea to have those.

Now for my political side. I believe if we were to adopt a consumption tax compared to an income tax and eliminate tariffs on imports than many of these manufactures would come here because America would be the world's most biggest and most powerful tax haven.

Why don't we eliminate the income tax and bring back the tariffs we already eliminated? Tariffs were intended by the constitution to be the main source of income for the federal government. The 16th, and the 17th and 18th amendments should have never been passed.

Why should a communist be punished just for being communist when fascists run wild all over Washington? Disclaimer: I am not nor have I ever been associated with the Communist Party!

unknownpro

onepocketchump · Jul 9, 2006

Varney Cues said:
No one here cares about your Navy time. I guess since you work for Fury you have all the answers. I'll too be sure and tell them you called them "loony nut jobs"...this was only told to me by the mgr. of Brady Dist. The largest distributor of Valley products in the area. A poolroom owner was waiting for their shipment of new Valley house cues and what I said was explained as the reason. I don't believe a man in his postion has any reason to fabricate that and pass it along to his customers.
You should check facts before you start name calling.

You are such an easy target it's not even fun. My 15 years in the billiard industry involved in all aspects from raw materials sourcing to retail does give me a bit more perspective than a second rate peddler of converted house cues. I don't suppose you have ever considered for a second that your "reliable source" got some bad info himself? So you are saying that your info came from a poolroom owner who heard it from the manager of a local distribution business who heard it from ???? And you have the gall to tell me to check my facts???

Even though you probably have fantasies of being Miss Cleo I doubt that you have even a fraction of her non-existent pyschic abilities. So you can't possibly know how anyone else feels about me or anything I have done. It would help you tremendouly though to practice your reading comprehension so that you could see that my source was someone who was in the Navy and not myself.

Quit being a knock artist who is trying to make himself look good by spreading rumors. Either get your information right or don't say anything. You are starting to look like the Geraldo of pool.

John

shag_fu · Jul 9, 2006

I like cheap cues. The ones I have hit good enough to win. They break like a ton o bricks, and I dont care who made them as long as it gets the job done. Sure I have a few decent customs, but I play with my secret asian specials more often than not. And for a few bucks, I dont have to be extra careful in some of those shadier venues we all like to frequent.

Nick B · Jul 9, 2006

I can't see them being built at sea

15 years ago I built (programmed) the a machine that Dufferin used to splice the two pieces that make up the points of the Hi-Run cues. Based on what my machine looked like and the automated machines that spun the shafts and other materials making up these cues I just can't see it.

There is still a lot of manual labour in making even a cheap house cue. Made on a ship...not a chance. These cargo ships are designed and manufactured to ship cargo. Not be rolling factories.

Nick

X Breaker · Jul 9, 2006

Nick B said:
15 years ago I built (programmed) the a machine that Dufferin used to splice the two pieces that make up the points of the Hi-Run cues. Based on what my machine looked like and the automated machines that spun the shafts and other materials making up these cues I just can't see it.

There is still a lot of manual labour in making even a cheap house cue. Made on a ship...not a chance. These cargo ships are designed and manufactured to ship cargo. Not be rolling factories.

Nick

Nick,

I think what they are trying to say is that the production process starts while the materials are being transported on the ship. The cues are not completely manufactured from scratch to finish on the ship.

Richard

bandido · Jul 9, 2006

JoeyInCali said:
They've been making them for a while.
From what I understand a foreign ship buys the maple logs then cuts them right there on the ship. Bypassing US tax and labor laws then ships the boards to China on the same boat.
Edwin Bandido can shed more light to this rumor.

OK Joey as this is too funny for me specially since it's being brought out as a "breaking news" when I already mentioned something to this effect years ago.

Logs bought in North America are processed on-board in-transit. The ship has a sawmill and kiln-dryers and this is done mainly for efficient time management. The raw materials just sitting there on its way to China is a waste of time so a decision was made to start the manufacturing process in-transit. Some manufacturers utilize return trips for finish application (clear coat, tips, bumpers and stickers) and packing.

Other US based company's too have been producing off-shore for quite sometime now but are pushed to find creative ways to steer clear of the "Buy America" sentiment. One was even forced to purchase their rejects (with minor blemishes) so as for these to not end up as competing products to theirs. They just mark them as such and offer discounts on these blems. The Filipino cuemakers' were even blamed for these supposed "counterfeits" when in truth they were the company's rejects that the sub-contractor found a marketing channel for.

China did start out with sub-par products but that's because of being alienated by other nations (lack of technological knowledge). Taiwan, on the other hand, started getting progressive with better quality products due to better production techniques taught by the Americans and Europeans. I was almost a part of this, 7 years ago, as I was approached to do sticker designs for the cues and to teach cuemaking in Taiwan. I declined as I only have time to dedicate to my own products. The product quality slowly increased as did labour expense so Taiwan manufacturers started moving their manufacturing to the mainland.

Well, the mainland Chinese learned the process so the break-away groups that has knowledge and access to cheaper Mainland equipment is now the main source of the lower cost products that you see and get.

It's funny that when I first posted about this back then I was ignored. Breaking news? LOL It really doesn't matter where it's made as long as it brings the satisfaction that the purchaser is looking for.

Boro Nut · Jul 10, 2006

Varney Cues said:
Well we all now know about the cues made in China. But you guys won't believe this...The cues are made on a ship on the way here from China..... What next?

GM Bonzai Maple trees. Cut the branches off and clag a tip on, straight from the forest.

Remember where you heard it first.

Boro Nut

pooltchr · Jul 10, 2006

Since most all the products are shipped from China in SEALED CONTAINERS, I would find it hard to believe that there is much production being done on board. My company orders large amounts of product on a regular basis. Most is shipped in those containers, although we are given the option of having some product sent air freight if we need it sooner. I don't think they are finishing anything on the cargo jet.
Steve

bandido · Jul 10, 2006

You're right since you mentioned air freight. But sealed containers is more of dictated by US Laws and the Chinese does things to not have to comply with any law that's why log processing is done on the trip to China. Some deck hands are retrained for the chores than just to have them sit around during the voyage. Other workers who are not certified seamen are also employed and paid less benefits or pay due to non-declared income. Who's going to go after them, the International Revenue Service?

This is also done to get quicker ROI and lesser capital expense.

onepocketchump · Jul 10, 2006

bandido said:
OK Joey as this is too funny for me specially since it's being brought out as a "breaking news" when I already mentioned something to this effect years ago.

Logs bought in North America are processed on-board in-transit. The ship has a sawmill and kiln-dryers and this is done mainly for efficient time management. The raw materials just sitting there on its way to China is a waste of time so a decision was made to start the manufacturing process in-transit. Some manufacturers utilize return trips for finish application (clear coat, tips, bumpers and stickers) and packing.

Other US based company's too have been producing off-shore for quite sometime now but are pushed to find creative ways to steer clear of the "Buy America" sentiment. One was even forced to purchase their rejects (with minor blemishes) so as for these to not end up as competing products to theirs. They just mark them as such and offer discounts on these blems. The Filipino cuemakers' were even blamed for these supposed "counterfeits" when in truth they were the company's rejects that the sub-contractor found a marketing channel for.

China did start out with sub-par products but that's because of being alienated by other nations (lack of technological knowledge). Taiwan, on the other hand, started getting progressive with better quality products due to better production techniques taught by the Americans and Europeans. I was almost a part of this, 7 years ago, as I was approached to do sticker designs for the cues and to teach cuemaking in Taiwan. I declined as I only have time to dedicate to my own products. The product quality slowly increased as did labour expense so Taiwan manufacturers started moving their manufacturing to the mainland.

Well, the mainland Chinese learned the process so the break-away groups that has knowledge and access to cheaper Mainland equipment is now the main source of the lower cost products that you see and get.

It's funny that when I first posted about this back then I was ignored. Breaking news? LOL It really doesn't matter where it's made as long as it brings the satisfaction that the purchaser is looking for.

Do you have any actual first-hand proof of this? I could even believe that the logs 'might' be worked on on the way to China but I highly doubt that there are any cues being touched on the way back.

I am sorry but this sounds like some kind of fantasy rumor with no basis in reality. I highly doubt that any shipping company wants to have loose logs that turn into missiles in rough seas. Not to mention the power required for the processing. It's just not energy efficient to do the processing on a ship.

I find it absolutely hilarious that there are so many speculative rumors about the billiard industry and overseas manufacturing in general.

I have sourced wood and raw materials for Taiwanese and Chinese cuemakers and in all that time I never came across any indication of wood processing at sea.

John

onepocketchump · Jul 10, 2006

bandido said:
You're right since you mentioned air freight. But sealed containers is more of dictated by US Laws and the Chinese does things to not have to comply with any law that's why log processing is done on the trip to China. Some deck hands are retrained for the chores than just to have them sit around during the voyage. Other workers who are not certified seamen are also employed and paid less benefits or pay due to non-declared income. Who's going to go after them, the International Revenue Service?

This is also done to get quicker ROI and lesser capital expense.

What? Sailors have enough to do to keep the ship from sinking. Have you ever seen a container ship? They are packed so tightly that a mouse can't squeeze between them. There is NO WAY that there are floating factories doing wood processing enroute to China.

Less benefits? Less than what, Chinese labor costs on land? Your statements sound very specualtive at best. If there are these floating sweatshops then someone out there would know about them. Bring us some kind of evidence that they exist other than something someone made up.

John

bandido · Jul 10, 2006

Well deja vu! Same as when I first mentioned that Preds were made in China.

From China, and you won't believe this...

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