How level is "level" for pool tables?

logical

Loose Rack
Silver Member
The milling marks/lines can throw off rolling balls on bare slate as someone pointed out earlier. I drove myself a little nuts trying to get all the skates shimmed rolling balls and then read a recommendation somewhere to tack the cloth in place and roll balls that way. Doing that assured me I had it good enough.

Another valuable tool,in my opinion more critical than a level, is a long strait edge, either an actual bar or long level. This allows verifying that all 3 slates form one flat plane, flush at the seams and is useful in getting a two piece long rail aligned straight to each other. A 90 degree square is also critical to get the rails perpendicular at all 4 corners.

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ceebee

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Our Snooker Table at Magoos, that we play GOLF on every day, can't be anywhere level, It has a ball & half roll off from end rail to corner.

Level isn't a word that's spoken here...
 

3kushn

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I agree that if he's just looking at a beam the accuracy will suffer, but some laser leveling systems can do a lot better:

The L-740's continuously rotating laser plane is flat to 1/2 an arc second (0.00003"/ft or 0.0025 mm/M) in a 360º sweep and 1/4 arc sec in a 90º sweep (0.000015"/ft or 0.001 mm/M).

It has a working range of 100 feet. The sensors have a resolution of 0.0001 inch.

https://www.hamarlaser.com/index.php/systems/ultra-series/l740.html?id=110

Might be overkill on Valley tables.:smile:

Wonder how "overpriced" Starrett gets within these specs on their granite surfaces?
How do you measure this? Your $20K laser isn't good enough unless my feeble math is working.

Laboratory Grade AA = (40 + diagonal squared/25) x .000001" (unilateral)
Inspection Grade A = Laboratory Grade AA x 2
Tool Room Grade B = Laboratory Grade AA x 4.

So $20K laser can't come close to checking a Starrett granite surface.

Sorry, just intrigued with Precision and how its done.

And yes, if you had to use this for a pool table?.............First remove all weapons and sharp objects from the premises.
 

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
Wonder how "overpriced" Starrett gets within these specs on their granite surfaces?
How do you measure this? Your $20K laser isn't good enough unless my feeble math is working.

Laboratory Grade AA = (40 + diagonal squared/25) x .000001" (unilateral)
Inspection Grade A = Laboratory Grade AA x 2
Tool Room Grade B = Laboratory Grade AA x 4.

So $20K laser can't come close to checking a Starrett granite surface.

Sorry, just intrigued with Precision and how its done.

And yes, if you had to use this for a pool table?.............First remove all weapons and sharp objects from the premises.

Now you know why no one uses them....LMAO
 

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
Wonder how "overpriced" Starrett gets within these specs on their granite surfaces?
How do you measure this? Your $20K laser isn't good enough unless my feeble math is working.

Laboratory Grade AA = (40 + diagonal squared/25) x .000001" (unilateral)
Inspection Grade A = Laboratory Grade AA x 2
Tool Room Grade B = Laboratory Grade AA x 4.

So $20K laser can't come close to checking a Starrett granite surface.

Sorry, just intrigued with Precision and how its done.

And yes, if you had to use this for a pool table?.............First remove all weapons and sharp objects from the premises.
When I can level a Valley pool table using a startett 98-8 in under 2 min and be done and ready to be on my way....how can any lazor leveling system even compare to that...LOL not to mention leveling a pool table on an upstairs flooring, good luck with any lazor leveling system...LOL
 
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realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
Here's the biggest problem with leveling pool tables.....ready for it....wait....wait.....the answer is.....the installer/mechanic! Most couldn't level a pool table no matter what level you give them to use because they don't know how to level a slate in the first place....and that's a fact!!!
 

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
In fact, I bet I could give all of you a chance to figure out how to level the slates in some of the situations I've had to deal with, and not one of you giving advice on how to level slates....would figure out how to correctly level them.
 

poolhustler

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
In fact, I bet I could give all of you a chance to figure out how to level the slates in some of the situations I've had to deal with, and not one of you giving advice on how to level slates....would figure out how to correctly level them.


Wow... you really are a GOD... :D
 

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
Wow... you really are a GOD... :D

See, the problem is, anyone can look at a level sitting on a slate and say.....oh yeah, that's not level.....but, knowing how to read a level is only 10% of the leveling of a slate, the other 90% is knowing how to manipulate the rest of the slate to be as flat, and level as possible....and that is an art, not just something you learn by looking at the bubble on a level!!;)
 

ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
Gold Member
Silver Member
a little about levels, bubbles, and settling

First off, I haven't leveled anything of importance in quite awhile. I have leveled thirty or forty thousand pound chunks of high grade cast iron and long ago leveled a few pool tables.

Anyone leveling their own home table has a huge advantage, they can let it settle. The usual reason a mechanic has to come back and relevel a table isn't because he did a crappy job, the floor or table frame, or slate, moved some as it settled.

Repeating some things but so we are all on the same page:

A piece of slate can be flat without being level. For example, turn a piece of flat slate on it's edge, it can still be flat, it is 90 degrees off of what we consider level! However, a piece of slate that doesn't have at least one smooth surface can never be truly level although it may be acceptably level.

Cheap levels often aren't flat themselves, so trying to decide something else is flat using them will drive you crazy! As has been mentioned already, there are different grades of levels. Once up to the better machinist levels the difference is in the vials, literally! The quality of the glass and the liquid in them. The cheap levels may have alcohol in them and plastic or cheaper glass vials. Ether is used in midgrade levels and I don't know what is used in the best analog levels. The thinner the liquid the more accurate the level can be. Not the only factor but with thick liquid the level can't be accurate. For this discussion alcohol is thick and the liquids used will quickly flash to a gas at room temperature if they are exposed to normal air pressure.

Best to set the table up including slate and rough level it then go away for from three days to a week or more. No idea how long today's thin slates take to settle but letting the floor, the table frame, and the slate stabilize can't be a bad idea unless you are trying to make a buck and need to do a quick job and get on to the next one. If things are badly out of level after settling it may be needed to do a second time. Now get out the nice levels and level the table to the tolerances that make you happy. Once cloth is on and and stretched the better grade precision levels are a waste of time. Those or almost any half decent level can be used to help rough level the table if balls are rolling off.

For those that like to roll balls, a moderate grade 2.25" ball bearing is available for $73 plus shipping from the little yellow hardware store. I suspect it will roll more honestly than any pool ball if rolled slowly. In my misspent youth I considered buying one and painting it white for late night at the bars. I don't know what the ball bearing weighs but I figured it would be an eye opener the first time somebody hit one hard with a cue stick!

Flat and level have little meaning without adding tolerances to the statement. Nothing is flat or level if measured precisely enough, including our instruments! Working to .000025" tolerances was enough to make me crazy and oddly enough was reached by handwork, not precision machinery. Needless to say, that was on something small, not a pool table.

If possible, set up the table, let it rest, relevel, and put on quality cloth. Precision leveling a table then putting on cheap cloth is a waste of time.

Hu
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
... So $20K laser can't come close to checking a Starrett granite surface.

Sorry, just intrigued with Precision and how its done. ...
The company I used to work for makes a laser measurement system (Keysight 5530 Dynamic Calibrator) that can measure flatness to 10 microinches over the surface of a pool table. That appears to be a lot better than the Starrett granite plate. If you are really interested, the manual for the HP 5528A has a good explanation of both how the general system works and the details of flatness measurement. The manuals or data sheets of both systems are available on-line. (If you already understand laser interferometry the manuals will make more sense.)
 

ThinSlice

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
First off, I haven't leveled anything of importance in quite awhile. I have leveled thirty or forty thousand pound chunks of high grade cast iron and long ago leveled a few pool tables.



Anyone leveling their own home table has a huge advantage, they can let it settle. The usual reason a mechanic has to come back and relevel a table isn't because he did a crappy job, the floor or table frame, or slate, moved some as it settled.



Repeating some things but so we are all on the same page:



A piece of slate can be flat without being level. For example, turn a piece of flat slate on it's edge, it can still be flat, it is 90 degrees off of what we consider level! However, a piece of slate that doesn't have at least one smooth surface can never be truly level although it may be acceptably level.



Cheap levels often aren't flat themselves, so trying to decide something else is flat using them will drive you crazy! As has been mentioned already, there are different grades of levels. Once up to the better machinist levels the difference is in the vials, literally! The quality of the glass and the liquid in them. The cheap levels may have alcohol in them and plastic or cheaper glass vials. Ether is used in midgrade levels and I don't know what is used in the best analog levels. The thinner the liquid the more accurate the level can be. Not the only factor but with thick liquid the level can't be accurate. For this discussion alcohol is thick and the liquids used will quickly flash to a gas at room temperature if they are exposed to normal air pressure.



Best to set the table up including slate and rough level it then go away for from three days to a week or more. No idea how long today's thin slates take to settle but letting the floor, the table frame, and the slate stabilize can't be a bad idea unless you are trying to make a buck and need to do a quick job and get on to the next one. If things are badly out of level after settling it may be needed to do a second time. Now get out the nice levels and level the table to the tolerances that make you happy. Once cloth is on and and stretched the better grade precision levels are a waste of time. Those or almost any half decent level can be used to help rough level the table if balls are rolling off.



For those that like to roll balls, a moderate grade 2.25" ball bearing is available for $73 plus shipping from the little yellow hardware store. I suspect it will roll more honestly than any pool ball if rolled slowly. In my misspent youth I considered buying one and painting it white for late night at the bars. I don't know what the ball bearing weighs but I figured it would be an eye opener the first time somebody hit one hard with a cue stick!



Flat and level have little meaning without adding tolerances to the statement. Nothing is flat or level if measured precisely enough, including our instruments! Working to .000025" tolerances was enough to make me crazy and oddly enough was reached by handwork, not precision machinery. Needless to say, that was on something small, not a pool table.



If possible, set up the table, let it rest, relevel, and put on quality cloth. Precision leveling a table then putting on cheap cloth is a waste of time.



Hu



Well written.


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CESSNA10

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
The guys who installed my Brunswick glenwood spent an 2 hours installing and another
hour leveling. They had a 6 small levels all over the table, kept moving them and shimming. Trust me it was level when they finished and a year later is still level
 

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
The guys who installed my Brunswick glenwood spent an 2 hours installing and another
hour leveling. They had a 6 small levels all over the table, kept moving them and shimming. Trust me it was level when they finished and a year later is still level
That's kind of my point, when leveling the slates on a pool table, there's more to it than just leveling side to side and end to end. When the slates are crowned or swayback, that throws in a whole different approach to leveling the slates. You can level a pool table until you think its perfect, then scratch your head trying to figure out why the balls roll away from the long rails at one end of the table, but not the other end. Or they roll towards the end rails halfway down the table, but roll dead straight down the middle.
 

jviss

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The company I used to work for makes a laser measurement system (Keysight 5530 Dynamic Calibrator) that can measure flatness to 10 microinches over the surface of a pool table. That appears to be a lot better than the Starrett granite plate. If you are really interested, the manual for the HP 5528A has a good explanation of both how the general system works and the details of flatness measurement. The manuals or data sheets of both systems are available on-line. (If you already understand laser interferometry the manuals will make more sense.)

frickin-laser-beams-5a72a4.jpg


:)
 

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
The guys who installed my Brunswick glenwood spent an 2 hours installing and another
hour leveling. They had a 6 small levels all over the table, kept moving them and shimming. Trust me it was level when they finished and a year later is still level

Did they also super glue the slate seams so they won't separate?
 

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
The guys who installed my Brunswick glenwood spent an 2 hours installing and another
hour leveling. They had a 6 small levels all over the table, kept moving them and shimming. Trust me it was level when they finished and a year later is still level

Second question, what is the cloth on the table.
 

3kushn

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The company I used to work for makes a laser measurement system (Keysight 5530 Dynamic Calibrator) that can measure flatness to 10 microinches over the surface of a pool table. That appears to be a lot better than the Starrett granite plate. If you are really interested, the manual for the HP 5528A has a good explanation of both how the general system works and the details of flatness measurement. The manuals or data sheets of both systems are available on-line. (If you already understand laser interferometry the manuals will make more sense.)

Did some quick reading and the thought dawned on me that I have this wrong regarding leveling a granite surface. I'm thinking now that the surface is the Standard in this case and the measuring device only needs to be within tolerance of the work being done.

Sticking my toe into the black hole.... How is the calibration laser equipment calibrated and how is that calibrated, and that.........?? In torque and force they stop at physical weights in a controlled room on a precision arm, calibrated to a specific GPS location. Even this isn't without error. Friction & motion in the arm and calibrating the scales that weigh the weights.
 
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