itrader and wanted/for sale forum

alpine9430

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I have been very disappointed with the number of bad transactions so I will give my take on a few things I would like to consider for the FOR SALE Section which should be separate for Want to Buy section.

Members Only Can List Items For Sale:
  • Only Paid Members of the Forum can post to the FS section.
  • Member need to have 30 days of memberships and a minimum of 30 posts to sell within the forum.
    Junior Members (0-29 posts) should be allowed to reply to posts in the FS Section.

Posting Rules:
  • Include your country of residence in the title, even if you are willing to sell outside that area.
    Within the post, please provide an indication of where you live.
  • Specify the currency you are selling in.
  • Post pictures, where applicable, in the original post.
  • Please list any extras or accessories you will include in the transaction.
  • State the acceptable method(s) of payment.
  • Please state if shipping/insurance is included in the price.
    Also state the method of shipping you are proposing.

Recommendations:
  • I would like to see the asking price to be left alone as it provides some idea of the potential market value of the item being sold at the time it was offered for sale.
    If the price is adjusted during the For Sale activities, the price can be adjusted but not removed.
  • Mark SOLD in the first opening thread when the item is sold.
    Right next to the last asking price.
  • One thread per item is enough.
    Multiple threads could be deleted.
  • No price policing or price comments.
    Such posts could be deleted.
  • No Bumping or limit bumps to every 2-4 days.
    Such posts could be deleted.
  • No Feelers.
    Feelers could be deleted without comment.
    It is either for sale or it is not for sale.
  • No Suitability Comments.
    Such posts could be deleted.

Again, just a couple of thoughts.
 
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Maniac

2manyQ's
Silver Member
With all of the newbies coming on this forum just to sell their stuff, some migrating over from Ebay trying to turn this into an auction site, buyers need to be more careful than ever.
It is still on us, not the AZ administrators.
Lately I've seen sellers taking "highest bid" on $200 items.
What's up with that?
That is one thing the mods really need to put a stop to.
This is not Ebay [/SIZE]

Tap, tap, tap!!!

These are the kind of "sellers" that a required paid membership to sell would eliminate. They "join" this site with the intent of selling a single item and then are never heard from again. Who needs these people???

Maniac
 

larrynj1

aka uncle larry
Silver Member
rather than requiring a club membership to sell an item, i suggest a minimum number of posts before starting a for sale thread ( i know this didn't work very well on the action board).

how often do we see a person's first post offering an item for sale, no pics and no price?
 

Blue Hog ridr

World Famous Fisherman.
Silver Member
For Sale section you must be a paid member to post a new thread.

I think this is a great idea. Someone mentioned that people were coming over from EBay to sell. I haven't noticed it yet but if its true, then a sellers fee might help alleviate any problems.

Myself, I might only sell a cue on rare occasion. I don't want to buy a membership just to sell one item. I know it sounds cheap and I should buy a membership for the amount of time I spend on AZ to support my favorite site.


If possible to implement, a sellers fee or percentage per item might be easier and put money into the site. I believe something like this could be worked out. There is a difference between a person using the Sale section on occasion (once or twice a year) as opposed to others conducting regular business here.

A sub section in the Sale forum to air grievances so threads are not posted in the main forum.

I don't believe in deleting threads. Its ok to make comments but often there are people who don't have a dog in the hunt who get carried away
with posts. Delete these posts instead of the entire thread. I know that the mods don't need nor want any more work moderating these threads.
In this case, there are a few respected members here that could moderate this sub section of the forum. Let them decide what is proper and moderate at their discretion.
 
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Klink

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
New members

Tap, tap, tap!!!

These are the kind of "sellers" that a required paid membership to sell would eliminate. They "join" this site with the intent of selling a single item and then are never heard from again. Who needs these people???

Maniac

This is also where some of the best deals are to be bought. They are Cues or such that have not been posted for sale before. I like being having new users come here to sell their stuff.

My ideas

Only 1 active for sale thread per user.

Leave the deals gone bad threads locked.

Lock all old (you determine how old) For Sale threads so they do not get bumped back up.

If the same users keep bumping their thread multiple times without a good reason like a price change or new info being added just lock them or just delete the thread.

No bumping threads for other people.

We all can see who the abusers are, just ban them from the for sale section after one warning.

separate For Sale and Wanted forums.

Just deal much more harshly with the trouble makers!
 

classiccues

Don't hashtag your broke friends
Silver Member
I have been very disappointed with the number of bad transactions so I will give my take on a few things I would like to consider for the FOR SALE Section which should be separate for Want to Buy section.

Members Only Can List Items For Sale:
  • Only Paid Members of the Forum can post to the FS section.
  • Member need to have 30 days of memberships and a minimum of 30 posts to sell within the forum.
    Junior Members (0-29 posts) should be allowed to reply to posts in the FS Section.

Posting Rules:
  • Include your country of residence in the title, even if you are willing to sell outside that area.
    Within the post, please provide an indication of where you live.
  • Specify the currency you are selling in.
  • Post pictures, where applicable, in the original post.
  • Please list any extras or accessories you will include in the transaction.
  • State the acceptable method(s) of payment.
  • Please state if shipping/insurance is included in the price.
    Also state the method of shipping you are proposing.

Recommendations:
  • I would like to see the asking price to be left alone as it provides some idea of the potential market value of the item being sold at the time it was offered for sale.
    If the price is adjusted during the For Sale activities, the price can be adjusted but not removed.
  • Mark SOLD in the first opening thread when the item is sold.
    Right next to the last asking price.
  • One thread per item is enough.
    Multiple threads could be deleted.
  • No price policing or price comments.
    Such posts could be deleted.
  • No Bumping or limit bumps to every 2-4 days.
    Such posts could be deleted.
  • No Feelers.
    Feelers could be deleted without comment.
    It is either for sale or it is not for sale.
  • No Suitability Comments.
    Such posts could be deleted.

Again, just a couple of thoughts.

Most of these are rock solid.. a few more...

Have an auction style sub category. A cue just sold through this method here and it's really an asset in this economy.

I-trader - expand it in case of a dispute.

Bumping limit.. a necessity. Comment limits, a necessity.

Comments on pricing should get the commenter a ban for 48 hours, then 96 hours then lifetime 3 strike rule

Have an identification section under the cue gallery to rid them from everywhere else on the board.

JV
 

rayjay

some of the kids
Silver Member
$100 membership is too high, IMO, for most people to sell something unless you are a business, constantly using the forum as the "store". Maybe different levels of "membership", i.e. $25 allows 5 sales posts/year, $50 allows 10, $100 allows unlimited posts of different items for sale for a year, clearly showing that they are running a store. Different levels of membership could be shown in the avitar. It seems to me that most people on the W/FS forum are occasional sellers, not doing a "business", and that clarification should be made clear to everybody. Raffles are risky business...
:p
 

justadub

Rattling corners nightly
Silver Member
I would like to see the title of any For Sale thread include the product w/brand, and the price.

With the sheer volume of postings in the Wanted/For Sale section, it can take an enormous amount of time to try and find something you might want, only to find that the seller is pricing it far above what you are willing to pay.

Details in the title would add convenience for those who might be interested in browsing the For Sale section.
 

alpine9430

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Most of these are rock solid.. a few more...

Have an auction style sub category. A cue just sold through this method here and it's really an asset in this economy.

I-trader - expand it in case of a dispute.

Bumping limit.. a necessity. Comment limits, a necessity.

Comments on pricing should get the commenter a ban for 48 hours, then 96 hours then lifetime 3 strike rule

Have an identification section under the cue gallery to rid them from everywhere else on the board.

JV

Great additions!

One other thing I would recommend:
All details on what is for sale has to be placed into the FS thread.
Do not enjoy being taken to another site even if it is a dealers site.
 

Tom In Cincy

AKA SactownTom
Silver Member
Mike,

How's this for an idea. GET RID of the 'wanted/for sale forum.

Let these sellers and buyers go to Yahoo and make up thier own forum.

Headaches resolved.

If these adults cannot complete successful transactions let them have their own forum somewhere else.
 

JillHawkCueCases

Jill Hawk Cases
Silver Member
theading it...

I think a tiered sellers membership fee is a great idea. Perhaps fs posts could denote which tier the seller belongs to, allowing the buyer to know if this is a business or casual endeavor for the seller. I think that makes a big difference. Business guys seem to avoid problems through extremely accurate discriptions, while casual users might not forsee what may cause problems upon delivery. Terms like 'usual wear' are very different coming from the guy who chipped the butt versus one who took it into his inventory

I agree also that limiting bump frequency would greatly increase the efficiency of shopping the forum.

One other idea that I had would be to make post-transaction communications public. Say that a deal is done...the seller reports to the mod who the buyer is...the mod moves the thread to a 'done deal' section and opens it to both parties. If transaction is smooth they both post thanks yous and that is it. But if there are disagreements then they can discuss them quickly and transparently via the thread. Prospective buyers could then research these threads and get a real feel for how the seller handles themselves when things go wrong. While sellers might not like the open forum, I think this would greatly protect the buyer.

Clyde C. Netzley, IV
 

bobroberts

Pool player
Silver Member
I think if you buy from a thread with a picture of the cue or case, then when itrader is given it goes to that thread. Sometimes it highlights the thread sometimes it doesn't. They should all highlight the thread in itrader.
This way people can see what was being sold and have a better idea and decide who is telling the truth in a dispute.
 

TATE

AzB Gold Mensch
Silver Member
OK gang, looks like we need to figure a few things out here. Having some problems lately with users flaking on deals and then whining about it when they are asked to do the right thing.

Want to remind everyone of a couple of things. Someone posting a negative itrader after a deal is not reason to post a negative itrader back. If you were happy with the deal, give them a positive itrader. If they give you a negative one, then reply with your side of what happened and let future customers decide whether to do business with you on their own after reading the facts.

I am thinking about the idea of putting some users on wanted/for sale probation if they have multiple legitimate complaints about the way they do business. I am open to anyone's thoughts on this sort of thing.

Also interested in other ideas as to how to police this area better. If you have an opinion, this is the place to make it known.

Mike

Mike,

I've given it some thought. If you want to do it right and benefit everybody on AZ, the marketplace, and ultimately your site and it's profitability- how about running wanted/for sale like a separate business section.

The section needs to be altered and upgraded. If you want the marketplace to grow and possibly thrive, there needs to be some built-in protections.

1) to list items in the wanted/for sale - to create a thread at all there - you must be Club Member or new category "Club Member -Industry" in good standing. Anybody can respond, anybody can buy, but only Club Members can list. Club Members would be able to list 5 items per year free, industry members - at a reasonable additional membership fee- would have unlimited listings and other listing benefits. This would get rid of a lot of garbage ads in Wanted/For sale and get rid of the non-related topics altogether.

2) A mediator/trustee is established to moderate and manage the wanted/for sale section ("mediator"). The mediator can revoke Club Membership and posting privileges at any time due to poor service, poor performance, non-delivery etc. The mediator would also be a membership director for industry - maybe charge a slightly higher industry fee, give them some advertising benefits, and give the mediator a piece of the fee for new recruits.

3) Mediation/escrow service offered by mutual consent: Should the buyer and seller agree, the Mediator can act as escrow agent for funds and charge a fee. Say cost plus 3% for example, minimum $20, maximum $50. The mediator holds the cash until the item is delivered and accepted by the buyer, and only then releases payment.

So, for example, a cue is sold for $1000 plus $20 shipping. Buyer Paypal's Mediator $1020 and Mediator nets $994.50. Cue is shipped to buyer and buyer A) accepts it. $994.50 less 3% is mailed by check to seller. Mediator fee equals $29.82 b) rejects it. Buyer ships back cue at their expense and upon successful return acknowledgment, refunds buyer $1000

Ideally the mediator would have access to credit card vendor accounts, etc, and would be responsible for reasonably verifying purchaser's identities, shipping addresses, etc. and exercise normally precautions to minimize or ideally eliminate fraud.

Or, a cue maker promises a cue in six months for $1000 and wants to ensure buyer is sincere. Buyer puts up 25% good faith deposit with Mediator. If buyer backs out, the deposit is paid to cue maker less fees. if cue maker cannot deliver in alloted time and buyer wishes to cancel, deposit is refunded less fees.

4) Mediator can post discussion threads regarding reliability of service of AZ Club Member Vendors.

This would be "value added" for Club Members and Club Member + industry

Look at it this way - if that same $1000 cue were sold on E-bay, you would have listing fees of say $10, final sale fee of $102, paypal fee of $30, and the seller would net $858 - with no real protection if the cue is rejected. Your way they would have protection, have a moderate annual fee, and they would net $111 more!.

If this is an option, I have the perfect guy for the job. He's honest, fair, and extremely knowledgeable of monetary policies, guarantees of paypal etc. He is an expert at insured shipping. He is an active seller and buyer and I respect him a lot personally. He is by far the most sophisticated buyer and seller on AZ and has had hands on experience generating successful multi-million dollar sales.

Anyway, I'll help you set it up if you want and help recruit someone. We could figure out the rules, etc. I don't know the technical issues managing the site - how threads could be poster specific, etc.

Chris
 

Kickin' Chicken

Kick Shot Aficionado
Gold Member
Silver Member
<snip> If this is an option, I have the perfect guy for the job. He's honest, fair, and extremely knowledgeable of monetary policies, guarantees of paypal etc. He is an expert at insured shipping. He is an active seller and buyer and I respect him a lot personally. He is by far the most sophisticated buyer and seller on AZ and has had hands on experience generating successful multi-million dollar sales.
<snip>Chris

Oh my goodness, I'm blushing, Chris...

Huh, what, you're weren't referring to me?

Oh, ahem, sorry about that...

Well, just as long as it's not the guy with those funny looking cats... :p :wink:

Best,
Brian kc
 

TATE

AzB Gold Mensch
Silver Member
Oh my goodness, I'm blushing, Chris...

Huh, what, you're weren't referring to me?

Oh, ahem, sorry about that...

Well, just as long as it's not the guy with those funny looking cats... :p :wink:

Best,
Brian kc

I was thinking about him. I don't know if he would do it, but he's very sophisticated - far more qualified than most might suspect. He has internet selling down to a science.

By the way, thanks for the link in the main section - I would not have found this.

Chris
 
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hdgis1

New member
I personally don't see AZ being in any way responsible for what happens between two individuals who enter into a business arrangement. To me, AZ is no different than a local newspaper except its free to post my stuff for sale. The paper isn't responsible for weeding out the scammers. If you want a well defined business model to help alleviate scamming, look to ebay in the old days.

As for only being able to post something for sale if you have a payed club membership, I think that is kind of ridiculous. I have sold just a couple things on here and never had one problem. Not made more than $20 profit on anything. Asking me to give up that total in club fees is crazy. Id rather go to ebay and lose a predefined percentage.

Chris
 
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Mr. Bond

Orbis Non Sufficit
Gold Member
Silver Member
I personally don't see AZ being in any way responsible for what happens between two individuals who enter into a business arrangement. To me, AZ is no different than a local newspaper except its free to post my stuff for sale. The paper isn't responsible for weeding out the scammers. Chris


BINGO.

Buyers and sellers must understand that AZ IS NOT liable for deals gone bad, and should not be treated as if they are. You wouldnt (and couldnt) "go after" a newspaper if the car you bought from the classified turned out to be a lemon.

That said, if AZ wants to help prevent problems, its a good thing.

I wouldnt agree with fees...

I would suggest that all buyers require a valid ID and a verifiable address.
The rest is common sense, the law protects consumers from fraud, not AZ.
 
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Bigjohn

Support Our Troops!
Silver Member
make it where only the buyer can leave negative feedback. That will stop retaliation feedbacks. I would also suggest... not going up on membership fees during these hard times. An Auction would be nice.
 
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alpine9430

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
There have been a couple of issues where the moderators had to intervene between a buyer and a seller (let me make a note that some of those threads were threads that were deleted over 2 years ago that did not sit well with some members of the forum and the most recent threads highlighted a problem that is growing more prevalent in our society). Those threads got out of hand by one side of the parties involved and the easiest solution at the time was to remove the entire thread completely. That made one side of the parties involved very happy and others very unhappy as the product they ordered was not as represented, orders not delivered, a few e-bay sellers coming over for their first sale disappear and the products not delivered. I feel that Mike is asking us what steps may be taken to help make the transactions a bit safer without resorting to doing away with the For Sale section entirely.

The membership fee in place goes to support the forum and it has been suggested that only members could create listing in the for sale section. Personally like the idea brought up by Tate about tiered membership as those members may be making some profit (some not all members make a profit). Either way, the membership fee is used to keep the forum we enjoy reading going.

More ideas are needed for how to handle the For Sale section effectively without a need for moderators to intervene.
 

Hidy Ho

Missed 4 rail hanger!!!
Silver Member
Here's edited version of the information from another site that I think is good. This site has moderators who help out. Also a separate section for buyer/seller feedback/dispute court and a section for cue related discussion.

Classified Forum Rules (PLEASE READ BEFORE ATTEMPTING TO POST)

1- Please do NOT make your opinion known in the seller's ad

  • Negative comments about a member's product, pricing, etc. will not be tolerated and such posts may be deleted by moderators. Please keep these comments to yourself.
  • If you disagree with a price, keep it to yourself. The seller has set the price. If you don't like it, don't buy it and move on. If you really feel strongly about it, then PM the seller.
  • If you are interested in an item, feel free to PM, email or contact the seller privately. Feel free to post if you need clarification... however, your post should be in line with above mentioned rules.

  • If you are aware of a serious issue with an ad (SPAM, stolen goods, damaged items being advertised and etc.) please PM a moderator about it.


2- Please DO NOT SPAM the classifieds section on AZ Billiards

  • Spamming entails using only the classifieds sections of AZ Billiards without taking part in other sections of AZ Billiards (regardless of whether the ad is for a personal item or a business.) The appeal of AZ Billiards classifieds is to enable and connect AZers with some established history on AZ Billiards to one another.

    AZ Billiards isn't craigslist, ebay, etc. Buyers who are looking to buy from random strangers do so on one of the above mentioned sites. Those who only post in Classifieds sections and don't take part in other parts of AZ Billiards are no different than any other random sellers on Craigslist, etc., and should use channels other than AZ Billiards to try and sell their items.
  • If you're affiliated with a store/shop, please contact xxxxxx regarding sponsorship options. ALL non-sponsor commercial posts will be deleted.
  • We encourage the use of the classifieds by active contributing members. New members may post in the Classifieds forum after 30 days and establishing minimal history on AZ Billiards. If you actively attempt to circumvent these minimum requirements only to post in classifieds, your account may be suspended. After reaching these minimums, posting only in the classifieds without taking part in other sections of AZ Billiards may result in being banned from AZ Billiards.


3- Please do not repost funny/strange/not-related-to-you ads from eBay, Craigslist or elsewhere on AZ Billiards.

  • No reposting of "funny" craigslist/eBay ads of "overpriced" items, scams, etc.
  • No reposting of any craigslist/other ads if the seller is not affiliated with you!


4- Sellers, for best results... please read and follow these instructions:

  • Do not include the price in the title. You won't be able to edit it later. Put the price in the body of your post.
  • Don't just link your craigslist/eBay ad here. Copy/paste your ad to AZ Billiards and make sure it includes the info below. (Reason for this: some companies stop people from going to certain 'popular' sites, craigslist/ebay/etc. being some of those sites; other sites may have not-work-safe links that may cause trouble for the viewer; craigslist ads expire after a week or two while info remains on AZ Billiards, etc.)
  • Edit your original post and change the price there... many buyers will not look beyond that point if you change the price later on further into the thread. Also, remember to add SOLD to first line of the first post when the item has been sold.
  • If selling a cue, include the following in the body of the post:

    - cue maker or brand and model number
    - weight of the butt and shafts
    - tip diameter
    - length of shaft and butt
    - overall condition
  • Please use the "Report this post to a moderator" option at the lower right portion of the thread if item is sold or to report erroneous posts or threads, and it will be taken care of.
  • With any indication that an item is sold, the thread will be locked by moderators. It is not fair to other valid ads to be pushed down the list when side discussions bump a sold ad to the top of the list. Moderators will do their best in changing the title and adding a 'sold' to the beginning of the title to save a few clicks for others.


5- Buyers, BEWARE!!!

  • Pricing - Know the current market value of the item. Check Ebay, Craigslist, other sources and know what the current market value is before considering a purchase.

  • Escrow - consider using escrow service for the purchase and be wary of sellers not willing to sell using escrow.
 
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