Consensus "Greatest of All Time" (GOAT) List

sjm · Jun 13, 2019

Poolmanis said:
Reyes maybe not have so many U.S Opens or WC as Earl but he always nailed "Biggest prizepool of history tournaments" That is what Filipinos want from pool: Win money.

Reyes 3
Earl 1
SVB 1

That's a very important point. Reyes won the IPT event for $500,000 and, if memory serves, two All Japan Championships back when the first prize was about $180,000. When the big money was up for grabs, nobody was tougher to beat than Efren.

I'll add that nine ball was probably Efren's third best game behind one pocket and eight ball, but he was still good enough to beat Earl Strickland in a race to 120 in the late 1990's, when Earl was still at the very top of his game. It was also in the late 1990's that Earl ran his $1,000,000 11-pack.

I've had more than a few chats with Earl over the years, and he only spoke with reverence and awe about two players during those chats: Efren Reyes and Mike Sigel.

dr_dave · Jun 13, 2019

Snooker Theory said:
How did you spread your 5 votes, inquiring minds want to know, lol
Sorry if I missed it

My "vote" was deciding on the initial ranking and starting scores for the first round. I didn't think I was necessary (or right) for me to add an additional 5 points in the first round, but I will most certainly vote in the 2nd round. My goal in voting will be to do my best to put Reyes, Van Boening, Strickland, Chia-ching, and Sigel in the top 5. It looks like all of my 2nd round votes will need to go to Wu. He won two major world championships at 16! He also places high or wins most events he enters and he is the current world top player (according to FargoRate). He must be feared by most top players. I hope he gets more votes in the first round so he can make it to the second round of voting.

Regards,
Dave

dr_dave · Jun 13, 2019

PoolBum said:
My vote:

Reyes 2
Sigel 2
Varner 1

FYI, I added your name and scores to the first post.

Thank you for participating,
Dave

dr_dave · Jun 13, 2019

Bob Jewett said:
I'm going to go with old guys who had to play all-around games...

3 Varner
2 Hopkins

FYI, I added your name and scores to the first post.

Thank you for participating,
Dave

PS: And thank you for helping me refine the poll concept before I posted it!

dr_dave · Jun 13, 2019

9 Ball Fan said:
If the old timers were in this; I'd include Mosconi and Lassiter for sure.

I think arguments could be make to include all of the old-timers in my honorable mention list if we weren't limited to the "modern era."

dr_dave said:
Note that I have not included players from the too-distant past. For example, arguments can be made that Mosconi, Greenleaf, Lassiter, Hoppe, Cranfield, Crane, DeOro, Lindrum, Caras (and others) deserve to be on the list, but I purposely excluded them since it is too difficult (or impossible) for most people to compare them to players in the modern era. I at least give them honorable mention here.

Regards,
Dave

dr_dave · Jun 13, 2019

PoloBob said:
Efren R - 3

Alex P - 2

FYI, I added your name and scores to the first post.

Thank you for participating,
Dave

dr_dave · Jun 13, 2019

Bob Jewett said:
9 Ball Fan said:

If the old timers were in this; I'd include Mosconi and Lassiter for sure.

Click to expand...

You (or Dave) have to draw the line somewhere. DeOro was arguably more of a GOAT than Mosconi but no one here ever saw him play and there is no video. I doubt half even know he was a world champion. Of the list we're voting on, I've seen them all play in person and I've played against twelve of of them.

FYI, I've made the following changes since the original thread post:

"Greatest of All Time" (GOAT) Pool Players (in the modern era, since 1970)

Note that I have not included players from the too-distant past. For example, arguments can be made that Mosconi, Greenleaf, Lassiter, Hoppe, Cranfield, Crane, DeOro, Lindrum, Caras (and others) deserve to be on the list, but I purposely excluded them since it is too difficult (or impossible) for most people to compare them to players in the modern era. I at least give them honorable mention here.

I hope that helps keep the discussion more "focused" and encourages more people to vote.

Thanks,
Dave

dr_dave · Jun 13, 2019

AtLarge said:
I'd like to see Bustamante in the next round of voting, so I'll give all 5 of my voting points to him.

FYI, I added your name and scores to the first post.

I like seeing the power of democracy in action!

Thank you for participating,
Dave

dr_dave · Jun 13, 2019

noMoreSchon said:
Man, so many great players...
Mike Sigel. + 2
Nick Varner +1
This next one is tough....Alex/ or Dennis...Each get one...I can't choose.

FYI, I added your name and scores to the first post.

Thank you for participating,
Dave

dr_dave · Jun 13, 2019

sjm said:
I think the poll is valid, but should have been named GLPOAT (Greatest living player of all time) instead of GOAT. GLPOAT is also good here by allowing us to compare these players in their respective primes, rather than considering the matter of who is the greatest player based on current form.

Seriously now, Ralph Greenleaf and Alfredo DeOro are dead for about 70 years. Yes, both are probably among the five best ever, but when they competed, there was no televised pool or streamed pool, so the only people who watched either one are those who watched them live. My guess is that ten AZB posters or less ever watched even one of them play, and what would be the point of including them in the poll only to see them finish well below far less accomplished players?

Omitting the guys most of us never saw play made plenty of sense to me, and I myself saw Mosconi, Lassiter, Crane, and Caras live. Thing is, though, they were all well past their playing primes when I watched them play, so comparing them to those I saw in their primes is a very difficult task.

Within its stated boundaries, this poll is indeed scientific.

Thank you for the comments. Well stated. I agree. See also:

dr_dave said:
FYI, I've made the following changes since the original thread post:

"Greatest of All Time" (GOAT) Pool Players (in the modern era, since 1970)

Note that I have not included players from the too-distant past. For example, arguments can be made that Mosconi, Greenleaf, Lassiter, Hoppe, Cranfield, Crane, DeOro, Lindrum, Caras (and others) deserve to be on the list, but I purposely excluded them since it is too difficult (or impossible) for most people to compare them to players in the modern era. I at least give them honorable mention here.

I hope that helps keep the discussion more "focused" and encourages more people to vote.

Best regards,
Dave

dr_dave · Jun 13, 2019

Poolmanis said:
Reyes maybe not have so many U.S Opens or WC as Earl but he always nailed "Biggest prizepool of history tournaments" That is what Filipinos want from pool: Win money.

Reyes 3
Earl 1
SVB 1

FYI, I added your name and scores to the first post.

Thank you for participating,
Dave

dr_dave · Jun 13, 2019

Wu Chia-ching is at risk of being bumped out of the Top 10.
Does he deserve to be in the second round of voting?

dr_dave said:
Initial Ranking with Current Scores

Rank - Name - Score

1 - Efren Reyes - 78
2 - Shane Van Boening - 52
3 - Wu Chia-ching - 40
4 - Earl Strickland - 52
5 - Mike Sigel - 53
6 - Nick Varner - 53
7 - Buddy Hall - 40
8 - Johnny Archer - 42
9 - Mika Immonen - 35
10 - Jim Rempe - 35
11 - Steve Miserzak - 37
12 - Allen Hopkins - 35
13 - Alex Pagulayan - 46
14 - Dennis Ocollo - 38
15 - Niels Feijen - 35
16 - Darren Appleton - 35
17 - Francisco Bustamante - 42
18 - Jayson Shaw - 30
19 - Josh Filler - 30
20 - Ralph Souquet - 32
21 - Albin Ouschan - 30
22 - Pin Yi Ko - 30
23 - Thorsten Hohmann - 25
24 - Jose Parica - 25
25 - Carlo Biado - 25

Current Top 10 (for the next round of voting):

Rank - Name - Score

1 - Efren Reyes - 78
2 - Nick Varner - 53
5 - Mike Sigel - 53
3 - Shane Van Boening - 52
4 - Earl Strickland - 52
6 - Alex Pagulayan - 46
7 - Johnny Archer - 42
8 - Francisco Bustamante - 42
9 - Wu Chia-ching - 40
10 - Buddy Hall - 40

Users who have already voted: 9 Ball Fan, AtLarge, Bic D, Bob Jewett, CrownCityCorey, Dimeball, dr_dave, evergruven, JazzyJeff87, Magyar19, mark187, MattPoland, Mich, PoloBob, PoolBum, Poolmanis, noMoreSchon, SamShaddey, Snooker Theory, sjm,TX Poolnut

dr_dave said:
My "vote" was deciding on the initial ranking and starting scores for the first round. I didn't think I was necessary (or right) for me to add an additional 5 points in the first round, but I will most certainly vote in the 2nd round. My goal in voting will be to do my best to put Reyes, Van Boening, Strickland, Chia-ching, and Sigel in the top 5. It looks like all of my 2nd round votes will need to go to Wu. He won two major world championships at 16! He also places high or wins most events he enters and he is the current world top player (according to FargoRate). He must be feared by most top players. I hope he gets more votes in the first round so he can make it to the second round of voting.

sjm · Jun 13, 2019

dr_dave said:
Wu Chia-ching is at risk of being bumped out of the Top 10.
Does he deserve to be in the second round of voting?

I don't think he's got the resume to be viewed as top 10 in the modern era, just too few significant achievements. For example, a guy like Ralf Souquet, who also doesn't make the top 10, has won each of these at least once:

World 9-ball Championship
World 8-ball Championship
US Open 9-ball Championship
US Open 14.1 Championship
All Japan 9-ball Championship
Derby City Classic 9-ball
World Pool Masters

Ralf adds to his gold medal at the World 9-ball with two silver medals in it.

Sustained excellence, not sporadic overwhelming brilliance, defines greatness for this pool fan. It's pretty hard for me to fathom why anyone would select Wu over Souquet.

dr_dave · Jun 13, 2019

sjm said:
dr_dave said:

Wu Chia-ching is at risk of being bumped out of the Top 10.
Does he deserve to be in the second round of voting?

Click to expand...

I don't think he's got the resume to be viewed as top 10 in the modern era, just too few significant achievements. For example, a guy like Ralf Souquet, who also doesn't make the top 10, has won each of these at least once:

World 9-ball Championship
World 8-ball Championship
US Open 9-ball Championship
US Open 14.1 Championship
All Japan 9-ball Championship
Derby City Classic 9-ball
World Pool Masters

Ralf adds to his gold medal at the World 9-ball with two silver medals in it.

Sustained excellence, not sporadic overwhelming brilliance, defines greatness for this pool fan. It's pretty hard for me to fathom why anyone would select Wu over Souquet.

Good point. I guess I need to have more faith in the democratic process. I was just worrying that people were shunning him since he is Chinese. Democracy is unfortunately sometimes influenced by biases and prejudices.

Regards,
Dave

Sealegs50 · Jun 13, 2019

Reyes - 2
Van Boening. - 1
Strickland. - 1
Sigel. - 1

Maniac · Jun 13, 2019

Efren-1
Earl-1
SVB-1
Varner-1
Sigel-1

This is a tough one to sort out. It has always been my opinion that there is no such thing as a GOAT in pool/billiards because of the many different types of games that are played. Some of the great players excelled in one or two games while others excelled in other games. Too hard to call.

There are probably at least 10 players that could arguably be called the GOAT.

Maniac

Pete · Jun 13, 2019

Efren Reyes - 2
Shane Van Boening - 1
Earl Strickland - 2

Cornerman · Jun 13, 2019

Sigel - 3
Varner - 1
Strickland - 1

Tooler · Jun 13, 2019

Efren -3
Earl -2

CGM · Jun 13, 2019

Efren-2
SVB-2
Sigel-1

Consensus "Greatest of All Time" (GOAT) List

Older and Wiser

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Older and Wiser

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It'd be a lot cooler if you did.