Captaining my first ever APA team in first APA match...any advice?

Pelican1989

Registered
I typically do just the opposite so that I get 3 chances to putb who i want against who they put up.

Though, there is occasion when I win the flip that I decide to put up first for one reason or another.

Except, if you value skill points and assuming they will play max points (22 or 23 pts only) after the 4th match if you have 5 pts left and they have 4, you already KNOW what they are going to play...so unless they have an underrated player as a 2-3, then you know their best play is a remaining 4 so in fact you are controlling matches 2, 4, and 5, they only control matches 1 and 3

Now however if their full team is there and you only have 2 players at league start time...or vice versa the situation changes

If you don't know who their players are and maybe they only have a 7 and a 2 present, it sucks to throw in a 4-5 hoping for an even match and getting the opposite

In this scenario I would let them throw first

If I knew their skills I'd play into them, aka if you want your 7 to play theirs throw him now and MOST likely they will throw theirs, now you controlled match 1, you will still control match 2,4, and 5 as usual

if the opposite is true and you only have your 2 and 7, and they have full team, you should throw first, to ensure a more likely closer to even match (unless you really have good reason to offset skills
 

Pelican1989

Registered
A few more points.

NEVER argue about rules...if a disagreement on a listed rule happens, ask the other team to show you the ruling. If they don't. You are the correct one. If they show it and the interpretation is disagreed. Get a ruling from the rep or a trusted 3rd party.

Matches are 3 points split. 3 for a shutout, 2 for a win, 1 for a sudden death loss ("hill hill loss"). Something I don't know if more people realize but playing a 2vs2 or a 3vs3 automatically ensures the teams will SPLIT 3 points per match instead of the chance of a 2-0 match

if you think your best player might get creamed...play your worst instead. Teach your players to take this match VERY seriously, and remind them if they get any games it's a HUGE win for the team. Even when they lose its a huge win, because now your best can play their 2nd best and win (more likely anyway). For example if they are playing 76532 and you're playing 66542, if their 7 is a "super seven" (who has like an 70%+ win ratio) playing "even" is a losing move.
Instead you can play your 2 against 7 and have each of your players have a 1 skill edge in their matches (higher skills do best lower ones more often, even if there is an equalizer)

I always coach my players, it's how they learn, if they have 2 coaches and are at least halfway through their balls and a tricky butnimportant situation comes up (like the differences between scratching versus making an easy 3 balls) CALL the coach, they probably don't know they need one. Save your second coaching for a desperate kick, a really scratchy 8 possibly loss, or an important position onto the 8 etc

Before the match write up all possible "max skill lines". I do all lines that add to 22 or 23. figure out which players are common on several lines. Like if you have only the lines 75443 and 65444, you know the 4's and 5 will play either way. If you throw them in matches 1, 2, and 3, you still have options of lines and your nopponent can't predict what you'll play

His uncertainty may lead to a mistake in matching up effectively

The same logic allows you to predict their lines and cross off lines no longer possible, sometimes thinkers you known by match 2 or 3 (sometimes even match 1) exactly what they can play

really good players in a skill level are great against both 1 skill level down (good chance of shutout) or 1 skill up (good chance for a non shutout win, against a "better" player at that)

a really good 4 is super stressful for a 7 to play, 1 game alone earns a point, 2 is a WIN! If the 7 is low end, and the 4 is good, it's a really great value match (and you gain 3 skill in difference that you can spread across 3 players for 3 advantage matches, as I said higher skills do win more often against low)

play drinkers early, or ask them to be slow drinking before their match

Play nervous players first when the pressure of winning it all or losing it all comes down to them in the last match

there are some ultra simple but key shots, that low players repeatedly will be unsure of like a hanging ball in a pocket and not scratching (straight in), or getting easy position off ball in hand etc, make sure they always use SOME angle

Show them 2 way shots, if 2 options are equally likely to go in, show them how to know when one miss would sell out the game whereas the other might play safe or leave a difficult shot, 2 way shots are the best way to play strategically while keeping skill levels lower (totally ethical)

ALWAYS mark defensives, especially for the other team, if they don't call safety but they "did not try to make the ball" mark it, teach your players to call defensives before they prepare to shoot, not after, as you might want to coach them to shoot offense instead (or vice versa if a clear defense is available)
 

RichSchultz

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
A few more points.

NEVER argue about rules...if a disagreement on a listed rule happens, ask the other team to show you the ruling. If they don't. You are the correct one. If they show it and the interpretation is disagreed. Get a ruling from the rep or a trusted 3rd party.

Matches are 3 points split. 3 for a shutout, 2 for a win, 1 for a sudden death loss ("hill hill loss"). Something I don't know if more people realize but playing a 2vs2 or a 3vs3 automatically ensures the teams will SPLIT 3 points per match instead of the chance of a 2-0 match

if you think your best player might get creamed...play your worst instead. Teach your players to take this match VERY seriously, and remind them if they get any games it's a HUGE win for the team. Even when they lose its a huge win, because now your best can play their 2nd best and win (more likely anyway). For example if they are playing 76532 and you're playing 66542, if their 7 is a "super seven" (who has like an 70%+ win ratio) playing "even" is a losing move.
Instead you can play your 2 against 7 and have each of your players have a 1 skill edge in their matches (higher skills do best lower ones more often, even if there is an equalizer)

I always coach my players, it's how they learn, if they have 2 coaches and are at least halfway through their balls and a tricky butnimportant situation comes up (like the differences between scratching versus making an easy 3 balls) CALL the coach, they probably don't know they need one. Save your second coaching for a desperate kick, a really scratchy 8 possibly loss, or an important position onto the 8 etc

Before the match write up all possible "max skill lines". I do all lines that add to 22 or 23. figure out which players are common on several lines. Like if you have only the lines 75443 and 65444, you know the 4's and 5 will play either way. If you throw them in matches 1, 2, and 3, you still have options of lines and your nopponent can't predict what you'll play

His uncertainty may lead to a mistake in matching up effectively

The same logic allows you to predict their lines and cross off lines no longer possible, sometimes thinkers you known by match 2 or 3 (sometimes even match 1) exactly what they can play

really good players in a skill level are great against both 1 skill level down (good chance of shutout) or 1 skill up (good chance for a non shutout win, against a "better" player at that)

a really good 4 is super stressful for a 7 to play, 1 game alone earns a point, 2 is a WIN! If the 7 is low end, and the 4 is good, it's a really great value match (and you gain 3 skill in difference that you can spread across 3 players for 3 advantage matches, as I said higher skills do win more often against low)

play drinkers early, or ask them to be slow drinking before their match

Play nervous players first when the pressure of winning it all or losing it all comes down to them in the last match

there are some ultra simple but key shots, that low players repeatedly will be unsure of like a hanging ball in a pocket and not scratching (straight in), or getting easy position off ball in hand etc, make sure they always use SOME angle

Show them 2 way shots, if 2 options are equally likely to go in, show them how to know when one miss would sell out the game whereas the other might play safe or leave a difficult shot, 2 way shots are the best way to play strategically while keeping skill levels lower (totally ethical)

ALWAYS mark defensives, especially for the other team, if they don't call safety but they "did not try to make the ball" mark it, teach your players to call defensives before they prepare to shoot, not after, as you might want to coach them to shoot offense instead (or vice versa if a clear defense is available)
Excellent points! But remember, if a strong 4 is on the bubble, and beats a 7...you know what may happen next week. Just prepare for that possibility to ensure that a new 5 won't upset your #s.
 

Kickin' Chicken

Kick Shot Aficionado
Silver Member
Lots of great advice so far and I will add this:

When calling a time out I always suggest asking the player what they have in mind first before sharing your thoughts. This will give you valuable insight into your team members strengths, weaknesses, and general knowledge of the game.

It can be a helpful teachable moment that can pay dividends for both of you going forward.

And the very best advice, imo, as has been said a lot here is to have fun.

best,
brian kc
 

whammo57

Kim Walker
Silver Member
Have some personal integrity............. never ever let any member of your team play a match without absolutely trying to win..................

Do not play the sand bagging game.............. report all sandbaggers with a note on the bottom of your score sheet.........

Never ever agree to over post, double post, or do a make up......................

Play by the rules............

You will be happier and satisfied but you will never go to Vegas..............


Kim
 

lorider

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
My personal rule: I NEVER sit someone 2 weeks in a row. They are there to play and have fun.

My policy also..sometimes you wind up losing that night because you feel obligated to play some one that you sat out last week and you have a better player sitting this week that could possibly have given your team the win that night.

Personally I prefer to play double jeopardy. Playing both 8 and 9 the same night makes it a whole lot easier to her every player on the team at least one match that night..
 

us820

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Has anybody here just put a fun 5 man everybody plays every week type team together?
 

lorider

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Has anybody here just put a fun 5 man everybody plays every week type team together?

Yes. However as you know.....sometimes life gets in the way of pool. When that happens you are screwed and have to forfeit a match when some one does not show unless the opposing team allows a replay. Some captains will not allow a replay because it an easy win for their team.

My magic number for a team is 6 players.
 

pogmothoin

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Has anybody here just put a fun 5 man everybody plays every week type team together?

Not exactly a recipe for success if your numbers are close to the limit. Couple of people get raised and you no longer have a team.
 

pogmothoin

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Lots of great advice so far and I will add this:

When calling a time out I always suggest asking the player what they have in mind first before sharing your thoughts. This will give you valuable insight into your team members strengths, weaknesses, and general knowledge of the game.

It can be a helpful teachable moment that can pay dividends for both of you going forward.

And the very best advice, imo, as has been said a lot here is to have fun.

best,
brian kc

Good piece of advice right there.

Also don't tell a 3 to do things they are not capable of. Can't teach a stroke in a 30 second time out. Tailor your advice to your player.
 

justadub

Rattling corners nightly
Silver Member
My personal rule: I NEVER sit someone 2 weeks in a row. They are there to play and have fun.

Agreed. Like any "rule", there will sometimes be exceptions, but I will do everything I can to stick to that philosophy. I will sit rather than let that happen, most of the time.
 

Missing Link

Lock N Link
Silver Member
Order the book "How to be the Captain of a Winning APA 8-Ball Team" by John Loftus.

I have used the principles in this book to coach teams to the finals every session since 2009, with a team going to Vegas and placing 17th nationwide in 2012. Anything I could tell you is said much better in this book, and well worth the $20.
 

jokrswylde

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
So I have my first case of a member being upset about a decision I made. This is a good buddy of mine, plays at my house weekly, and I have a good idea of how strong of a player he is. Here is the scenario:

Tight match with three matches left. Me, pretty strong four, another guy a strong 3, and my buddy an average to low 3.

The other team has 5, 5, 3 left. It is my turn to put up. I felt very confident in putting my strong 3 up against their 3...no doubt. My buddy against their 3 would be 50/50 at best, leaning toward us losing.

So I put up my strong 3 against their 3 and he won 3-1.

That left me and my buddy playing the two 5's from the other team. Well he got steamrolled in about 15 minutes and lost 5-0.

The bad part is that it looked like he tanked the last games, trying crazy shots, not taking his time, just walking up and banging it. As I was about to start my match, I overheard him make the comment to a teammate that it doesn't make sense to put him up against a 5 when I know he can't win. As soon as the match was over he broke down his stick and left.

I still feel like I made the right decision that gave us the best chance to win. I explained to my buddy before I put him up that I didn't expect or need him to win, just try hard to not get shutout.

Two weeks into this thing and already having hurt feelings! I guess I will try to throw him a bone next week and try to match him up with a 2, let him get some confidence and good vibes. Any thoughts about how I could have handled it differently?
 

Koop

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
That left me and my buddy playing the two 5's from the other team. Well he got steamrolled in about 15 minutes and lost 5-0.

The bad part is that it looked like he tanked the last games, trying crazy shots, not taking his time, just walking up and banging it. As I was about to start my match, I overheard him make the comment to a teammate that it doesn't make sense to put him up against a 5 when I know he can't win. As soon as the match was over he broke down his stick and left.

I still feel like I made the right decision that gave us the best chance to win. I explained to my buddy before I put him up that I didn't expect or need him to win, just try hard to not get shutout.

Two weeks into this thing and already having hurt feelings! I guess I will try to throw him a bone next week and try to match him up with a 2, let him get some confidence and good vibes. Any thoughts about how I could have handled it differently?

You handled it right, IMO.
You got the win and he had a shot, with a decent spot, to steal a win. Sounds like he defeated himself before a ball struck and that's on him, not you. Does he expect you to cater to his level of play every week to protect his delicate ego? Seriously, I know this sounds harsh but, stay home and play video games if you can't handle some competition.
 

Koop

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You handled it right, IMO.
You got the win and he had a shot, with a decent spot, to steal a win. Sounds like he defeated himself before a ball struck and that's on him, not you. Does he expect you to cater to his level of play every week to protect his delicate ego? Seriously, I know this sounds harsh but, stay home and play video games if you can't handle some competition.

Just to follow up with something that happened to me last week to give you an idea of the opposite type players. My buddy James and I are both APA 7's with him being leaps and bounds better. We are on the same USAPL team playing both 8 and 10 ball. We both won out matches easily but were short players so the other team allowed us to ghost which meant, they get to pick who they get to play from our team. James and I were convinced they would duck us but guess what?....they picked us to play. This was both smart and ballsy, IMO!
It was ballsy because they watched us dismantle their guys earlier and they decided they weren't going for the easy points. Massive respect for them. It was smart because we were giving up way too much weight and they took advantage. They beat both of us and fairly convincingly.

I bring this up because, if your guy had an ounce of these guys attitudes, he may have pulled off the upset or at the very least not looked a little pissed off kid whacking balls around because he already beat himself mentally.
 

justadub

Rattling corners nightly
Silver Member
Yeah, you probly made the right call, and now you've begun to see the actual hard part of captaining....the people management. You oughta try explaining to him that everyone will eventually be matched up with someone that is a much stronger player. It's a given. The key to that is to try and make them work for it. And remind him that lower level players beat higher level players all the time, you just gotta be ready when the opportunity presents itself.

Good luck. League might not be for him.....
 

Celophanewrap

Call me Grace
Silver Member
So I have my first case of a member being upset about a decision I made. This is a good buddy of mine, plays at my house weekly, and I have a good idea of how strong of a player he is. Here is the scenario:

Tight match with three matches left. Me, pretty strong four, another guy a strong 3, and my buddy an average to low 3.

The other team has 5, 5, 3 left. It is my turn to put up. I felt very confident in putting my strong 3 up against their 3...no doubt. My buddy against their 3 would be 50/50 at best, leaning toward us losing.

So I put up my strong 3 against their 3 and he won 3-1.

That left me and my buddy playing the two 5's from the other team. Well he got steamrolled in about 15 minutes and lost 5-0.

The bad part is that it looked like he tanked the last games, trying crazy shots, not taking his time, just walking up and banging it. As I was about to start my match, I overheard him make the comment to a teammate that it doesn't make sense to put him up against a 5 when I know he can't win. As soon as the match was over he broke down his stick and left.

I still feel like I made the right decision that gave us the best chance to win. I explained to my buddy before I put him up that I didn't expect or need him to win, just try hard to not get shutout.

Two weeks into this thing and already having hurt feelings! I guess I will try to throw him a bone next week and try to match him up with a 2, let him get some confidence and good vibes. Any thoughts about how I could have handled it differently?

He's your buddy, of course you're gonna look out for him......
I think you did it right, your stronger 3 need to play the other 3 and you need to try to
play the weaker 5, one of you was gonna get sacrificed, it made sense to try to match
your weakest player to their strongest. Your buddy needs to realize that he's on a
team, there will be weeks when that's gonna happen and everyone, for whatever
reason, will get a turn. It's how the match-ups fall and that's what happens. You did the
right thing, as long as winning was your main goal, but you still expected his best
effort. Who knows if their five was maybe having a bad week, or gets freaked out when
he has to give up weight. I say those things because sometimes you' have to play what
have and you just want to get through all five and someone has to play first and leave
leave early and someone forgot their cue, etc... Those nights you really can't have a
strategy and you need to get through it.
But really, your buddy can either be on the team or not. You can add or drop with the
first 4 weeks, don't be afraid to remind him of that when you ask what he wants to do.
 

justadub

Rattling corners nightly
Silver Member
All their 5 had to do was E-8 or scratch on the 8, or hang the 8 in the corner, and your guy would have gotten at least one point. That stuff happens, all the time and to better players than 5's. Get that thru to your guy....
 
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