Can't find a fargo rate on some of the more famous pool instructors

Scott Lee

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I don't teach "hourly sessions", and I wouldn't take you on as a student if you paid me triple. The only video you've seen is that tired old one of one game at the DCC in the middle of the night about 15 years ago. If you base a decision on whether or not to take pool lessons from someone based solely on who they have beaten, or what their "fargo rating" is, then you join the legions of idiots who just don't know any better. As has been put forth many times in this thread and others, a smart person, before spending their money, bases decisions like that more on what other students have to say about the instructor.

Scott Lee
Director, SPF National Pool School Tour

I realized what he was implying which was why I used the wink emoji, and I was also being sarcastic in return. You and Randy may think I am an idiot and you are welcome to your opinions. Me thinking a coach I choose to pay for hourly sessions should play well is my prerogative.

I certainly wouldn't pay for your services based off the few videos I have seen of you playing, maybe you are a great player or were a great player and just having an off day, and maybe people with my mindset are losing out on a skilled teacher.
 
Last edited:

Snooker Theory

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I don't teach "hourly sessions", and I wouldn't take you on as a student if you paid me triple. The only video you've seen is that tired old one of one game at the DCC in the middle of the night about 15 years ago. If you base a decision on whether or not to take pool lessons from someone based solely on who they have beaten, or what their "fargo rating" is, then you join the legions or idiots who just don't know any better. As has been put forth many times in this thread and others, a smart person, before spending their money, bases decisions like that more on what other students have to say about the instructor.

Scott Lee
Director, SPF National Pool School Tour

I have taken literally hundreds of golf lessons with at least a dozen coaches, and I think not looking at a coach's skill and previous accomplishment is the real idiot move.

In my opinion most of those lessons were a waste of money. If an APA level 1 takes a lesson, they aren't going to know a good teacher from a bad teacher, it also doesn't take much instruction for someone who sucks to make rapid improvements so of course, the average terrible player thinks every coach is great.

The real trick is when you play better than your instructor, what does he teach you,
for instance if your coach is helping you with straight pool and the coach has never broke 50, and the student consistently breaks 50, what is the coach going to teach him about strategy? Something he wasn't able to implement in his own game, something he read from a book or saw in a video.


At least with golf there are some standards to become a teaching professional, for instance, most become teaching pros go through a university pro golf management program, where you have to have at least a 3 handicap to even be able to join the program.

It's rather odd to become a pool instructor one doesn't have to have a fargo rate to become an instructor.
 

newcuer

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It's rather odd to become a pool instructor one doesn't have to have a fargo rate to become an instructor.

Silly for people to go back and forth flaming someone on an internet discussion forum. If I was instructor, I would skip the back and forth, and just do what you love to do...and play in some tournaments that will give that instructor a fargo rate. Then you can successfully shut up the detractors once and for all...
 

BRussell

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I have taken literally hundreds of golf lessons with at least a dozen coaches, and I think not looking at a coach's skill and previous accomplishment is the real idiot move.

In my opinion most of those lessons were a waste of money. If an APA level 1 takes a lesson, they aren't going to know a good teacher from a bad teacher, it also doesn't take much instruction for someone who sucks to make rapid improvements so of course, the average terrible player thinks every coach is great.

The real trick is when you play better than your instructor, what does he teach you,
for instance if your coach is helping you with straight pool and the coach has never broke 50, and the student consistently breaks 50, what is the coach going to teach him about strategy? Something he wasn't able to implement in his own game, something he read from a book or saw in a video.


At least with golf there are some standards to become a teaching professional, for instance, most become teaching pros go through a university pro golf management program, where you have to have at least a 3 handicap to even be able to join the program.

It's rather odd to become a pool instructor one doesn't have to have a fargo rate to become an instructor.
Can you explain why all the top golfers and top athletes from other sports all have coaches? They’re the best in the world, so no one is better than them, except maybe a few of their top competitors, and yet they all have middle aged fat guys telling them how to play.

I’d suggest it’s because one of the traits of a top athlete is an understanding that they don’t know it all, and a willingness to learn from others. If you don’t have those traits, you’re probably never going to improve anyway.
 

Snooker Theory

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Can you explain why all the top golfers and top athletes from other sports all have coaches? They’re the best in the world, so no one is better than them, except maybe a few of their top competitors, and yet they all have middle aged fat guys telling them how to play.

I’d suggest it’s because one of the traits of a top athlete is an understanding that they don’t know it all, and a willingness to learn from others. If you don’t have those traits, you’re probably never going to improve anyway.

Well, if we are talking golf, again most teaching professionals have had to at one time had a minimum of a 3 handicap, so we aren't talking about folks who never played the game at a decent level, better than 95% of the people they coach.

Certainly, not all the top golfers have had coaches either, Bubba Watson has never had a lesson in his life, several other pro golfers could say the same.

Look at tiger woods, he played his best golf under Harmon who won multiple amatuer tournaments AND even a PGA event, and these days he has pretty much abandoned swing coaches, which is why he is getting back in the win collum IMO.
 

sixpack

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Can you explain why all the top golfers and top athletes from other sports all have coaches? They’re the best in the world, so no one is better than them, except maybe a few of their top competitors, and yet they all have middle aged fat guys telling them how to play.

I’d suggest it’s because one of the traits of a top athlete is an understanding that they don’t know it all, and a willingness to learn from others. If you don’t have those traits, you’re probably never going to improve anyway.

I think it depends on what part of the game you are looking for coaching on.

I believe that many amateur and even pro pool players could benefit from sports psychology or performance coaching. That isn't something that someone had to have played well to coach well. Although usually it is someone who has been fairly successful at some type of competitive activity.

The golf swing is very complicated and teensy changes can make huge differences in outcomes. Better and worse. Most top players don't understand the golf swing as well as top coaches because coaches have 20+ more years of figuring it out and watching thousands and thousands of players. So having a swing coach totally makes sense for a golfer. I don't know about a pool player.

Lee Trevino famously said "When a teacher beats me I'll take a lesson from him."

If a pool player wants to improve their stroke - they should find a stroke expert. Like Scot Lee or Randy G. If a player wants to improve their strategy and pattern play, they should find someone who understands how pattern play can change with high level play. I doubt anyone in the world can help Shane much with pattern play because his pocketing percentages on conventionally difficult shots change the math too much. He has his own patterns.

If a player wants to understand why they run out of gas or have trouble getting up mentally for matches, they might want to get a nutritional or wellness coach. Again, no requirement that they have even ever played pool.

I am a performance coach and own a company that trains coaches. I had a student in one of my classes do some coaching sessions on me about pool using techniques that I use on people and it caused my pool game to jump dramatically. And she had never even played pool!

Bottom line is, if I wanted to become a pro pool player, I would want to start with someone who has been there. That will give me an overview and help me understand where the gaps are.

Then I'd bring in the best people I could find to help me address those gaps. Some of them would have pool expertise and a lot of them wouldn't.
 

BRussell

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I think it depends on what part of the game you are looking for coaching on.

I believe that many amateur and even pro pool players could benefit from sports psychology or performance coaching. That isn't something that someone had to have played well to coach well. Although usually it is someone who has been fairly successful at some type of competitive activity.

The golf swing is very complicated and teensy changes can make huge differences in outcomes. Better and worse. Most top players don't understand the golf swing as well as top coaches because coaches have 20+ more years of figuring it out and watching thousands and thousands of players. So having a swing coach totally makes sense for a golfer. I don't know about a pool player.

Lee Trevino famously said "When a teacher beats me I'll take a lesson from him."

If a pool player wants to improve their stroke - they should find a stroke expert. Like Scot Lee or Randy G. If a player wants to improve their strategy and pattern play, they should find someone who understands how pattern play can change with high level play. I doubt anyone in the world can help Shane much with pattern play because his pocketing percentages on conventionally difficult shots change the math too much. He has his own patterns.

If a player wants to understand why they run out of gas or have trouble getting up mentally for matches, they might want to get a nutritional or wellness coach. Again, no requirement that they have even ever played pool.

I am a performance coach and own a company that trains coaches. I had a student in one of my classes do some coaching sessions on me about pool using techniques that I use on people and it caused my pool game to jump dramatically. And she had never even played pool!

Bottom line is, if I wanted to become a pro pool player, I would want to start with someone who has been there. That will give me an overview and help me understand where the gaps are.

Then I'd bring in the best people I could find to help me address those gaps. Some of them would have pool expertise and a lot of them wouldn't.

Good post, thanks for the response.
 

Snooker Theory

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I think it depends on what part of the game you are looking for coaching on.

I believe that many amateur and even pro pool players could benefit from sports psychology or performance coaching. That isn't something that someone had to have played well to coach well. Although usually it is someone who has been fairly successful at some type of competitive activity.

The golf swing is very complicated and teensy changes can make huge differences in outcomes. Better and worse. Most top players don't understand the golf swing as well as top coaches because coaches have 20+ more years of figuring it out and watching thousands and thousands of players. So having a swing coach totally makes sense for a golfer. I don't know about a pool player.

Lee Trevino famously said "When a teacher beats me I'll take a lesson from him."

If a pool player wants to improve their stroke - they should find a stroke expert. Like Scot Lee or Randy G. If a player wants to improve their strategy and pattern play, they should find someone who understands how pattern play can change with high level play. I doubt anyone in the world can help Shane much with pattern play because his pocketing percentages on conventionally difficult shots change the math too much. He has his own patterns.

If a player wants to understand why they run out of gas or have trouble getting up mentally for matches, they might want to get a nutritional or wellness coach. Again, no requirement that they have even ever played pool.

I am a performance coach and own a company that trains coaches. I had a student in one of my classes do some coaching sessions on me about pool using techniques that I use on people and it caused my pool game to jump dramatically. And she had never even played pool!

Bottom line is, if I wanted to become a pro pool player, I would want to start with someone who has been there. That will give me an overview and help me understand where the gaps are.

Then I'd bring in the best people I could find to help me address those gaps. Some of them would have pool expertise and a lot of them wouldn't.

I must also say, I really stellar post!
Lee did say if he had it to do over again he would have learned a more conventional swing, but who knows if he would have ever played at the level he did changing it.

An interesting fact, Lee actually kept the club on the target line through impact the longest of any golfer in history, due to that figure 8 swing of his.
 

KRJ

Support UKRAINE
Silver Member
I have taken literally hundreds of golf lessons with at least a dozen coaches, and I think not looking at a coach's skill and previous accomplishment is the real idiot move.

In my opinion most of those lessons were a waste of money. If an APA level 1 takes a lesson, they aren't going to know a good teacher from a bad teacher, it also doesn't take much instruction for someone who sucks to make rapid improvements so of course, the average terrible player thinks every coach is great.

The real trick is when you play better than your instructor, what does he teach you,
for instance if your coach is helping you with straight pool and the coach has never broke 50, and the student consistently breaks 50, what is the coach going to teach him about strategy? Something he wasn't able to implement in his own game, something he read from a book or saw in a video.


At least with golf there are some standards to become a teaching professional, for instance, most become teaching pros go through a university pro golf management program, where you have to have at least a 3 handicap to even be able to join the program.

It's rather odd to become a pool instructor one doesn't have to have a fargo rate to become an instructor.

Weird, I was an amateur, HS and college baseball player and a HS baseball coach. One thing I never did in my life was a hit a homerun over the fence. Not one time, ever, in over 40 years of playing. I was forced to quit at 53 ;)

You know what I did do. I turned a lot of kids into home run hitters, including my own son. He hit more homeruns by the age of 10 than I hit in my entire life. Stings a little, but I know what it takes, I know the swing, but I'm not a HR hitter, just a fact of life. But, I know how to do it.

Glad nobody asked me about my "professional" experience before coaching HS baseball. And I'm not a dreamer, I had ZERO shot of ever playing professional baseball at any level. Weird, not one parent had a concern that I could not help them get a college scholarship or get ready for a professional try out. But, I mean, it's only baseball, its not like its the fuggin most difficult sport on the planet, oh wait, it is, lol
 

dardusm

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Weird, I was an amateur, HS and college baseball player and a HS baseball coach. One thing I never did in my life was a hit a homerun over the fence. Not one time, ever, in over 40 years of playing. I was forced to quit at 53 ;)

You know what I did do. I turned a lot of kids into home run hitters, including my own son. He hit more homeruns by the age of 10 than I hit in my entire life. Stings a little, but I know what it takes, I know the swing, but I'm not a HR hitter, just a fact of life. But, I know how to do it.

Glad nobody asked me about my "professional" experience before coaching HS baseball. And I'm not a dreamer, I had ZERO shot of ever playing professional baseball at any level. Weird, not one parent had a concern that I could not help them get a college scholarship or get ready for a professional try out. But, I mean, it's only baseball, its not like its the fuggin most difficult sport on the planet, oh wait, it is, lol

https://www.ksdk.com/article/sports...judge/63-a92ad487-30b8-4018-bbee-684931628205

Interesting article that has some merit to the on going debate. I know teacher, he owns a pool room in St. Louis and is a good player. He became a hitting guru to help his son. I think you can learn from almost any instructor. Playing at a high level might give you some insights that other instructors don't have, but don't discount an instructor if they aren't a top player because you may still learn some things.
 

newcuer

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I think some of the comparisons to other sports doesn't work. I think a good comparison would be to free throw shooting in basketball. I think if you can't use your own teaching methods to teach yourself to shoot free throws at a high rate, you probably wouldn't be a good teacher. It doesn't depend on your gender, age, physical abilities, etc.

And if I shoot 45% of my free throws in, I would probably would have a hard time telling a good teacher from a bad teacher. They would all probably seem good to me...
 

sixpack

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
https://www.ksdk.com/article/sports...judge/63-a92ad487-30b8-4018-bbee-684931628205

Interesting article that has some merit to the on going debate. I know teacher, he owns a pool room in St. Louis and is a good player. He became a hitting guru to help his son. I think you can learn from almost any instructor. Playing at a high level might give you some insights that other instructors don't have, but don't discount an instructor if they aren't a top player because you may still learn some things.

He used to post on here a lot. I miss his posts even though he was a little rough around the edges. :D
 

Scott Lee

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
RC...If you really wanted to become a pro player, you woiuld first seek out the best stroke instructors. Then start playing and competing. Then maybe seek playing lessons from the champion players. Then, more time in the box, etc. For solid, permanent improvement everything starts with a better stroke...period.

Scott Lee
Director, SPF National Pool School Tour

I think it depends on what part of the game you are looking for coaching on.

I believe that many amateur and even pro pool players could benefit from sports psychology or performance coaching. That isn't something that someone had to have played well to coach well. Although usually it is someone who has been fairly successful at some type of competitive activity.

The golf swing is very complicated and teensy changes can make huge differences in outcomes. Better and worse. Most top players don't understand the golf swing as well as top coaches because coaches have 20+ more years of figuring it out and watching thousands and thousands of players. So having a swing coach totally makes sense for a golfer. I don't know about a pool player.

Lee Trevino famously said "When a teacher beats me I'll take a lesson from him."

If a pool player wants to improve their stroke - they should find a stroke expert. Like Scot Lee or Randy G. If a player wants to improve their strategy and pattern play, they should find someone who understands how pattern play can change with high level play. I doubt anyone in the world can help Shane much with pattern play because his pocketing percentages on conventionally difficult shots change the math too much. He has his own patterns.

If a player wants to understand why they run out of gas or have trouble getting up mentally for matches, they might want to get a nutritional or wellness coach. Again, no requirement that they have even ever played pool.

I am a performance coach and own a company that trains coaches. I had a student in one of my classes do some coaching sessions on me about pool using techniques that I use on people and it caused my pool game to jump dramatically. And she had never even played pool!

Bottom line is, if I wanted to become a pro pool player, I would want to start with someone who has been there. That will give me an overview and help me understand where the gaps are.

Then I'd bring in the best people I could find to help me address those gaps. Some of them would have pool expertise and a lot of them wouldn't.
 

jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
Gold Member
Silver Member
Can you explain why all the top golfers and top athletes from other sports all have coaches? They’re the best in the world, so no one is better than them, except maybe a few of their top competitors, and yet they all have middle aged fat guys telling them how to play.

I’d suggest it’s because one of the traits of a top athlete is an understanding that they don’t know it all, and a willingness to learn from others. If you don’t have those traits, you’re probably never going to improve anyway.

Good point here. Pool is not all about stroke, stance, bridge etc. There are many esoteric elements to being a top player. I was never a great pool player but I held my own against many who were and occasionally won matches (tournaments and money) with some very good players. What I was is a good observer of the game and the winning characteristics of the best players. That has allowed me to do some good pool commentary and notice things that other commentators might miss.

I've been able to point out things to many good players who I befriended that I'd like to think helped them to be more successful. It could be as simple as telling one very well known player that he didn't need to be gambling in the casino prior to playing a big match. I pointed out to him that on some of the occasions that he had lost big matches, he had been gambling and losing beforehand. That put him in a negative state of mind when he had to play pool. He changed that habit and has done pretty well since then, winning quite a few tournaments.

When a young John Schmidt confessed to me how nervous he was before playing in the Finals at the Sands years ago, I reminded him that this is exactly what he had been practicing and preparing for all these years, a chance to win a major tournament. Rather than be scared he should embrace the moment and show everyone how well he can play. He won that match and the tournament.

When Tang Hoa went from local star to the major leagues of pool in the 90's, he was still in awe of the big name players. I told him he had nothing to fear, that they were just as worried about him as he was of them. And it was true. Tang was a ball making machine who was impervious to pressure and he went deep in many major events on the Camel Tour, finishing in the top ten of the year end standings two years in a row. He beat champion after champion to reach the finals against Buddy Hall in the 1998 U.S. Open. Buddy had beaten him 11-8 in the hot seat match and Tang threw a scare into him. So much so that Buddy sought me out to make a "saver" before the finals.

Being in a positive state of mind is just as important (if not more so) than getting in some extra practice. In some cases I've told players they need more warm up time before matches and other players that they may be burning themselves out by practicing too much. Once again, it's all in the observation of what works for each person. And that can change from day to day.

As simple a thing like chewing gum (Nick Varner) can be very relaxing for a player in the heat of battle. For someone else, changing cues or the shaft can make a big difference when they feel uncomfortable with their cue prior to (or even during) the match. It might be a mental trick but it can work wonders. Seen it, done it!

The mental side of pool at the highest level is just as important as the skill and strategy the players employ. Believe me, a Josh Filler must go out there with a good mind set or he would have no chance to accomplish what he's already done. Same for Shaw or Van Boening or any other pro you would like to name. If I have any expertise as a coach, it is in these areas. Being able to get my player in the right state of mind to win!

There is so much more I could say on this subject but these are just a few examples.
 
Last edited:

sixpack

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
RC...If you really wanted to become a pro player, you woiuld first seek out the best stroke instructors. Then start playing and competing. Then maybe seek playing lessons from the champion players. Then, more time in the box, etc. For solid, permanent improvement everything starts with a better stroke...period.

Scott Lee
Director, SPF National Pool School Tour

I agree. The stroke is fundamental. Nothing is more important. But I was posting as a hypothetical if I didn't know where to begin. I'd touch base with a pro and/or study their game to figure out how far off I was and figure out where to start.

The key is finding someone to model and then objectively identifying weaknesses and managing the process yourself instead of just throwing off all of the responsibility on someone else to help you and decide what you need to work on.
 

Straightpool_99

I see dead balls
Silver Member
It's a bit silly when people only want to use Fargoratings to select a coach...A coach needs to be good at observing and communicating, executing is not really all that important, unless you need to demonstrate something.

On the other hand I see some very famous coaches teaching techniques that none of the top players use. This, to me, shows that these coaches are NOT good observers and that they're probably not very good players either...Had they'd been good players, they'd know that these things lead to a dead end. And when I watched a famous coach not only miss easy shots, but play piss poor patterns and position routes on video, that to me was a red flag. Doesn't mean he's all bad as a coach, just that maybe one should not take advice from him on the things he obviously does not understand.

Seen plenty of "good" players who are nothing but shotmakers. They're patterns are bad, they have weird habits and faulty beliefs to boot. In games like 9 ball this can be negated with pure shotmaking, sometimes. I'd never go to such a player for a lesson, no matter what his/her fargorate may be.

Another extreme is someone who doesn't even play the game...I got some very good pointers from a sports coach in a different sport alltogether. He was at the top in that profession, and it was easy to see why. His observations were all on point and he was able to communicate them very clearly, even if he knew no pool terminology. I wouldn't select him as my main "go-to" guy, but his insights were really helpful. His Fargorate wasn't all that relevant, now was it?
 

ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
Gold Member
Silver Member
li'l Joe Villalpando

Little Joe's playing days were done long before Fargo. While I certainly haven't seen all DVD's and instructors, Joe's are the best I have seen. He also seems to have the patience of a saint when teaching.

While Joe focuses on other things than stance and stroke in his video's I have never seen a long term student of his that didn't have a great stance and stroke. I have to think that comes from Joe too.

One of the first questions I would ask of an instructor that has been at it awhile, "What have your students done?" Several amateur national championships to Joe's student's credit. Same for Jerry Briesath, pros and amateurs I believe. Stan Shuffett coached his son among others. Had Landon not chosen almost certainly a better path it is almost certain he would be a major pro player after his amateur national victories. I suspect that several instructors in this thread can make similar brags if they chose to.

After awhile an instructor's work speaks louder than what he did himself. If somebody is turning out champions left and right I don't care if his biggest win was an eight ball tournament at Joe's bar and grill, I'd be glad to learn from him.

This post was spurred by a purchase I just made. Been trying to coach someone a couple thousand miles away and communication is never perfect. Unfortunately, Joe is over a thousand miles from either of us I believe, in another direction. I just sent all the instructional materials Joe has to the man in California. If he uses them, he can have the table experience of three to five years of hard knocks in a few months or so. Still have to learn pattern play, the mental game, and perhaps making games if he wants to gamble. Some things can't be put in a bottle or learned from an instructor.

Hu
 

ShortBusRuss

Short Bus Russ - C Player
Silver Member
Weird, I was an amateur, HS and college baseball player and a HS baseball coach. One thing I never did in my life was a hit a homerun over the fence. Not one time, ever, in over 40 years of playing. I was forced to quit at 53 ;)

You know what I did do. I turned a lot of kids into home run hitters, including my own son. He hit more homeruns by the age of 10 than I hit in my entire life. Stings a little, but I know what it takes, I know the swing, but I'm not a HR hitter, just a fact of life. But, I know how to do it.

Glad nobody asked me about my "professional" experience before coaching HS baseball. And I'm not a dreamer, I had ZERO shot of ever playing professional baseball at any level. Weird, not one parent had a concern that I could not help them get a college scholarship or get ready for a professional try out. But, I mean, it's only baseball, its not like its the fuggin most difficult sport on the planet, oh wait, it is, lol

I know this was aimed more at Snooker Theory, but your post is firmly in line with what I believe should be the method by which folks should pick their coaches... "The proof is in the pudding." You had a proven history of coaching players to achieve what the coaching is meant to achieve.

Coaching a kid to swing well enough to get home runs is likely not an easy thing. And anyone watching your players knows that you are capable of doing so. So... There's not really any DEBATE that you know what you are doing.

At least up to a certain level. Some coaches will keep improving and coach better and better players, until they either don't feel like stepping up to the next level of coaching, or their expertise proves to be not as effective at a higher level.

Johann Ruslink has a proven history of turning champions into better players, by whatever means he does so. Stan Shuffet has a proven track record. Little Joe Villalpando has some of the best training material out on the market, and I wish he put out more. He also has a entire family of state level champions on his resume.

I STRONGLY debate the idea that some of the other mentioned coaches have the same resume. Just sayin'. If they can't put forth clear and obvious examples of significant improvement of their players, then it's all just marketing. The player's OPINIONS of that coach count for little, because the inner circle of Charles Manson and Ted Bundy thought highly of them, as well. And as we all know, players will TELL you they got much better, when they plainly haven't.

So, to summarize, I agree with the idea that a coaches' Fargorate doesn't really have a lot to do with demonstrating their ability to teach. But their STUDENT'S Fargorate.... Very much DOES.
 
Last edited:

jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
Gold Member
Silver Member
Little Joe's playing days were done long before Fargo. While I certainly haven't seen all DVD's and instructors, Joe's are the best I have seen. He also seems to have the patience of a saint when teaching.

While Joe focuses on other things than stance and stroke in his video's I have never seen a long term student of his that didn't have a great stance and stroke. I have to think that comes from Joe too.

One of the first questions I would ask of an instructor that has been at it awhile, "What have your students done?" Several amateur national championships to Joe's student's credit. Same for Jerry Briesath, pros and amateurs I believe. Stan Shuffett coached his son among others. Had Landon not chosen almost certainly a better path it is almost certain he would be a major pro player after his amateur national victories. I suspect that several instructors in this thread can make similar brags if they chose to.

After awhile an instructor's work speaks louder than what he did himself. If somebody is turning out champions left and right I don't care if his biggest win was an eight ball tournament at Joe's bar and grill, I'd be glad to learn from him.

This post was spurred by a purchase I just made. Been trying to coach someone a couple thousand miles away and communication is never perfect. Unfortunately, Joe is over a thousand miles from either of us I believe, in another direction. I just sent all the instructional materials Joe has to the man in California. If he uses them, he can have the table experience of three to five years of hard knocks in a few months or so. Still have to learn pattern play, the mental game, and perhaps making games if he wants to gamble. Some things can't be put in a bottle or learned from an instructor.

Hu

"Little Joe" was a well known player who criss-crossed the country for many years, long before he ever showed up as an instructor. I would call him a strong shortstop speed and an even better gambler. He stood up there rock solid and fired those balls in. Plus he was a "long" player and could wear you down. One other thing, Joe always had a good looking girl with him. He knew how to get the money and the girls! :wink:

I only played him once on a bar table (I think in Colorado) and I just had to give him up after awhile. I only lost a couple of games but he was showing no signs of slowing down. We are life long friends, good ones! Just a really stand up guy.
 
Last edited:
Top