Done with eight ball

Your table, your game, your rules. They can take their quarters elsewhere if they don't like it. I like to play with an iPod in my ears when I'm alone...sends a message to folks that walk up that I'm not interested in anything other than playing by myself.

Your table, play how you like.

I always saw the varying conditions and opponents as an advantage in training.

Yes, I preferred to play people who could beat me and I preferred to play with the best equipment I could, and I preferred to play by "professional" rules. Nothing bugged me more than amateur league rules. Them ain't the rules, they are an aberration cooked up for amateurs. I had to get over it.

Anyway, often enough I did not have ideal conditions for one reason or another.

Being able to adapt to conditions is extremely important. Even "perfect" tables differ. If your opponent is more adaptable then he has an advantage. Training to adapt is important IMHO.

Too often people train for ideal conditions. From what I read in these forums that problem has only grown since I have been away from the game.

Even adapting to somebody's hokey rules is important.

Look how often a rule controversy rears up. How does it affect you? Can you roll with it or does it adversely affect your game.

Rather than let circumstances get in the way, use them to your advantage as much as possible and get something positive out of it.


You know the story.....bar room rules.....some guy with a busted up old cue.....maybe one off the rack....he's the local guy to beat and you know he does not have half the game you do. You take him on and he cleans your clock. He knows the conditions. If that has not happened to you then you don't get around enough. If you blamed it on the conditions then you are missing/lacking a skill.....adaptability.

Let's not demean the humble bar box as being not suitable for practice, play, or training. Nobody, I don't care how good they are, is "above" it.

Maybe I can show you the local bar box I know so well....maybe you won't do so well? I dunno..... But of course you can always say it was just because it wasn't a tuned Diamond table..... :wink:

I tell my medical students all the time....get rid of excuses.

Just my thoughts.....

nrhoades said:

The nightmare begins when someone else wants to play. They never want to learn how to play with proper rules, a common problem, and I end up regretting their presence. I couldn't find a solution to this....those coming to the table either won't argue with the rules....

How have you approached the same problem?

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What rules do you play by? APA, BCA, House, Bar, Call shot, call pocket, slop counts or it doesnt?

I see it every time I go out and somebodey is whining about "league rules"...the problem they are the only one who plays that league.

if you don't want to play anyone go to a pool room and rent the table. You could also go very early and you will probably cut down on the bozo factor, but u should not think because u have a roll of quarters on the table that you "own" the table. Most bars want their customers to be happy and that includes the guy that drinks like a fish and wants to challenge someone to a game, friendly or otherwise. I usually cut down on the very weak players by proposing a wager. If you can't adapt your game when something is on the line, then ... Loosen up. Drink a couple of cold ones and relax.

Agree if you want to play by certain rules then that's the game

Yeah, I've had that problem with eight-ball. I'd make a shot that was fine by BCA rules, then my opponent would jump in with some house rule as if it were universal. I don't play in bars these days, and it doesn't seem to happen as much in pool rooms.

I tell them "this is the $10 a game table, we can play by any rules you want as long as you tell me what they are before." If they still want to play, all arguments go there way, and I just assume we're playing bar rules (behind the line, hit any ball anytime, and scratch on the eight looses) until other wise specified (by them). If I scratch I just see where he puts the cue ball. If I break a ball in, I ask if its open. I never pay for practice = ). And I think it was Grady who said that you'll never beat anybody for a lot of money unless you're playing their game.

Problem with bar rules, unless they're in writing, rules tend to differ from place to place. If not, bring a rule book BCA, APA, doesn't matter which and ask the other guy to agree before beginning the set.

What do you perceive your level versus the people you are playing? For reference we can use the APA 2-7 scale level.

nrhoades said:

I've determined that I can enjoy any rule set as long as there is a consequence for fouls. The lack of foul penalties causes all of the problems:

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Agreed. I shoot in a Wednesday last-pocket league. Only foul is if you scratch, then you give up BIH. I've seen time and time again where teams with one ball left that's tied up with their opponents will start kicking at the ball, of course not coming close to it, leaving it for the opponents to break out.

There's an offense and defense in every sport.... but evidently not bar-room 8-ball.

How complicated does it have to be? Ask before playing:

Open on the break, or take what you make?

Call pocket, or slop counts?

Ball in hand, or behind the line?

Shots have to clean, or do you have to call caroms or cushions, or if it goes it goes?

This can be shortened to bca, Apa, or house rules? (Then define the house rules.)

Again, it doesn't seem too difficult to me. If plsying somebody else's rules bothers you so much, I think you're right to probably avoid playing there.

A coin op table in a bar is by it's nature a challenge table. You have no right to hog the table to yourself. While you can suggest what rule set you'd like to play by, you're looking for conflict if you say it's your way or the highway.

Seriously, if you want individual practice, go to a pool hall. When you go to a bar, if you want to get along with the other patrons you should seriously leave your ego and your "my rules are superior" attitude at the door.

WSA rules are by far the best, but you can't shove them down peoples throats when all they want to do is drink a few beers and knock some balls around.

Bar-rules 8-ball=Miniature Golf.

nrhoades said:

This hasn't generated the dialog I had expected. Forget it.

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Why?

Actually, I think the answers you got run the gamut, and appropriately cover a wide demographic:

• Those that say the coin-op table is a communal table, and is noone's "property." You can't claim it for yourself, and every bar patron has the right to challenge you for "ownership" of the table. This is especially true in places where there is only one table.
  
  
• Those that say if there are multiple tables in the place (i.e. two, three, or more), your response to a challenge should be, "of the three tables in this place, this is the $5 (or $10) table, played using so-and-so rules. Are you sure you want to play?" This gives the challenger an option -- a choice. It's not "hogging" the table, because 1.) there are other tables in the place he/she can easily move to if your "rules" are not amenable to him/her, and 2.) you're not exactly turning the person away either -- you're just stipulating that this table, which you've "won," has certain stipulations on it, including a certain game to be played, with a wager.
  
  
• 8-ball is the "universal" game on coin-op tables, because of the standard bar-banger's perception of "getting his/her money's worth" -- i.e. all 15 balls on the table that he/she "paid for." Also, this game of "stripes and solids" (or "reds and yellows" if you're playing British blackball) is readily identifiable to any person. The concept is simple -- sink all the balls of your category, then you get the privilege of sinking the 8-ball (blackball) for the win. The problem with any game that's "universal" but not universally refereed/sanctioned, and played by "commoners," is that the house will sometimes make up their own rules. Bar-bangers have this perception that "calling every contact" -- every single cushion, carom, tickie, etc. -- somehow "demonstrates more skill." Obviously we here know this not to be true, as the reverse is true -- it creates more arguments than it solves. But it is what it is, and you have to deal with it. Just ask about (and agree upon) the rules before the first rack is broken.
  
  
• Those that say the "my way or the highway" approach to a communal table is elitist. There's a valid point to this, whether you like to hear it or not. You may be engaging in a little game of "buying up the assets, and leaving the liabilities behind" so-to-speak -- meaning, you only see what you want to see, because it pleases *you*. If you ask your opponent to play this way, but will relent if he/she refuses, then that's a different matter. (At least you offered, but settled to play the game the opponent wanted to play -- in the spirit of the rules of a communal table in a public place.)

I think you got a lot of good/varied answers to your post, and it is generating a lot of discussion -- some of which you "may not want to hear" (see last point above). But remember, that's the point of a public discussion forum!

-Sean

This is hard to believe, a discussion over Bar Rules! This could turn into a thread longer than Des Moines.
randyg