Revo deflection...curious

Matt...You can get "cutesy" with your humor, but randyg is not only correct, but appropriate in using the two words to communicate effectively. Squirt is used to accurately describe what happens to the CB, when struck off center...deflection is used to accurately describe what happens to the cuestick, when you strike the CB with it, off center. Better instructors try to simplify explanations, rather than complicate them. Just like better intructors use the terms right and left, to describe sidespin...as opposed to the very confusing terms of inside and outside spin.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

billiardthought said:

Actually, squirt is not a good word for what happens to the cue ball - I have never measured any moisture coming from the cue ball in all of my analysis.

Deflection, squirt, whatever, this thread is talking about which shafts minimize the bad property and maximize the good property. Correct people as much as you want, everyone in the thread understood each other already.

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squirt, deflection, spin, etc.... aside.

I used a 12.9 for quite a while and then tried out the 12.4. Love my R12.9's … hated the R12.4

poolhustler said:

squirt, deflection, spin, etc.... aside.

I used a 12.9 for quite a while and then tried out the 12.4. Love my R12.9's … hated the R12.4

Click to expand...

Why did you hate the 12.4?

Andrew Manning said:

That doesn't make sense.

Deflection and squirt are used interchangeably.

Using your proposed definitions, a "low deflection" shaft actually deflects more (the shaft itself) than a high deflection shaft. The deflection that is "low" is the CB deflection (squirt). If we switched to using the term deflection only to mean how much the shaft deflects, we'd have to rename all LD shafts HD shafts and nobody would understand anyone anymore.

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bob meucci with his glorious bullshittery coined the terms and did so due to marketability.

a low deflection shaft DOES actually have the shaft deflecting more because physics.....if you want that CB to follow a straighter path you have to make the shaft "duck" out the way and take on more of the side ways energy via hollows, negative loading, reduced diameter, or more flexible ferrules or a combination of some of them.

deflection: a turning aside or deviation from a straight line

not everyone understands all that and i find it appropriate for the reminder to come up from time to time for the ones new that dont actually understand. Could be an educated person wondering about how the nomenclature just doesnt make sense.

end of day Randy aint out of place and he sure as shit isn't wrong.

KMRUNOUT said:

So I just got a 12.4 Revo, Radial pin, up and running. I've been playing with a 3/8-10 joint with a 4" mid extension, into a 314-3. I took my 314-3 down a little bit to about 12.6mm. It seems to have super low deflection. Now using the Revo (with an identical mid extension in every way except a Radial pin on the male end), I seem to get significantly more deflection with the Revo. It is not a small difference. I love the way the Revo hits and plays, but am a bit disappoint that I will now have to adjust to way more deflection.

Anyone have any thoughts or personal experiences with this? I was under the impression that the Revo would have well less deflection than a 314-3, even one a bit smaller diameter.

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It is my experience that the 12.4 Revo plays pretty much the same as the Z-2. I played with the Z-2 for many years, and when I switched to the Revo, I didn't need to adjust at all how I adjusted my aim when using sidespin.

Here is the video others have mentioned:

NV J.12 - How to Select a Pool Cue, Cue Ball Deflection, Carbon Fiber, Revo vs. Cuetec

BTW, it is not diameter alone that determines a shaft's CB deflection. For more info, see:

CB deflection (squirt) endmass and stiffness effects

Regards,
Dave

Dr Dave, First, thank you so much for all the help and information you have given us over the years. Has helped me immensely! Thank you! So I just got my 12.4 Revo yesterday and it squirts like a pig!! I am shocked!! I had watched your video and had expected it to be very close to a Z .... and mine is absolutely, positively not!!!!! I will send it to you if you like? Maybe I got a bad one that they put lead in the front or something! I normally play (and have for many years) exclusively with two z2's and two 314's custom turned to 12.3 following original taper and those both squirt about as close as your video examples of 12.4 Revo and Z2. However, my new 12.4 Revo (and maybe I just got a front heavy one or something) is squirting at least as much as the solid maple in your example. I am pissed and disappointed and may just put this one in the garbage (I doubt they will take it back). I am nicely dialed in right now with my 12.3 314 and for example, a nice force follow, from say 4 or 5' distance CB to OB, with a tip or more of top side, is squirting at least 1/4 ball MORE than the 12.3 314 or the Z! I guess I will call Predator today and see if they will do anything..... very disappointed .... really want to love it. I wish you could hit with it and you would see my description is 100% true and valid (in the case of this particular shaft anyway .... maybe they somehow got it front heavy) Any thought or suggestions Dr Dave??

The hot new thing is high deflection shafts anyway. Ditch those low squirt shafts and take your aim to the outer limits. Don't even bother aiming at the ball! Aim at the exit sign and squirt that rock to your object ball guessing point. Only $1,000 each and made of a natural substance know as "The Schon Tree". Who want's one?

obsespool said:

Dr Dave, First, thank you so much for all the help and information you have given us over the years. Has helped me immensely! Thank you! So I just got my 12.4 Revo yesterday and it squirts like a pig!! I am shocked!! I had watched your video and had expected it to be very close to a Z .... and mine is absolutely, positively not!!!!! I will send it to you if you like? Maybe I got a bad one that they put lead in the front or something! I normally play (and have for many years) exclusively with two z2's and two 314's custom turned to 12.3 following original taper and those both squirt about as close as your video examples of 12.4 Revo and Z2. However, my new 12.4 Revo (and maybe I just got a front heavy one or something) is squirting at least as much as the solid maple in your example. I am pissed and disappointed and may just put this one in the garbage (I doubt they will take it back). I am nicely dialed in right now with my 12.3 314 and for example, a nice force follow, from say 4 or 5' distance CB to OB, it is squirting at least 1/4 ball MORE than the 12.3 314 or the Z! I guess I will call Predator today and see if they will do anything..... very disappointed .... really want to love it. I wish you could hit with it and you would see my description is 100% true and valid (in the case of this particular shaft anyway .... maybe they somehow got it front heavy) Any thought or suggestions Dr Dave??

Click to expand...

You might try the "natural pivot length" test recommended here:

natural pivot length resource page

That is a better way to directly compare shaft squirt characteristics.

If that still shows the Revo not performing as expected, I would contact Predator.

Good luck,
Dr. Dave

obsespool said:

Dr Dave, First, thank you so much for all the help and information you have given us over the years. Has helped me immensely! Thank you! So I just got my 12.4 Revo yesterday and it squirts like a pig!! I am shocked!! I had watched your video and had expected it to be very close to a Z .... and mine is absolutely, positively not!!!!! I will send it to you if you like? Maybe I got a bad one that they put lead in the front or something! I normally play (and have for many years) exclusively with two z2's and two 314's custom turned to 12.3 following original taper and those both squirt about as close as your video examples of 12.4 Revo and Z2. However, my new 12.4 Revo (and maybe I just got a front heavy one or something) is squirting at least as much as the solid maple in your example. I am pissed and disappointed and may just put this one in the garbage (I doubt they will take it back). I am nicely dialed in right now with my 12.3 314 and for example, a nice force follow, from say 4 or 5' distance CB to OB, with a tip or more of top side, is squirting at least 1/4 ball MORE than the 12.3 314 or the Z! I guess I will call Predator today and see if they will do anything..... very disappointed .... really want to love it. I wish you could hit with it and you would see my description is 100% true and valid (in the case of this particular shaft anyway .... maybe they somehow got it front heavy) Any thought or suggestions Dr Dave??

Click to expand...

First i've ever heard this about a Revo. Strange. If it is heavier than spec at front i wonder how that could happen? Definitely contact Pred about it.

Dr. Dave, Yes I fully understand pivot point. Wish I could send you this shaft. Did you find your pivot point on 12.4 Revo to be way different than your Z?
Thanks!

obsespool said:

Dr. Dave, Yes I fully understand pivot point. Wish I could send you this shaft. Did you find your pivot point on 12.4 Revo to be way different than your Z?

Click to expand...

I found the 12.4 Revo pivot length to be very close to the same as my Z2.

Regards,
Dave

garczar, Thanks.... I think that's what this original post was about if you read back. Others reporting the 12.4 Revo having MORE squirt than Z's or maybe even 314's. I don't know if mine is a fluke out of spec or not but I assure you, beyond a doubt, it is squirting way more than a Z. I'm sure its hard for anyone to take that statement and be sure that I am not mistaken.... I double assure you I am not!

Dr Dave, Hard to assure you that I am not mistaken about this amount of squirt. How can you believe someone who as far as you know may not know which end of cue to use! Just my word, but believe me, I have and do study and apply this stuff more than 95% of your readers probably do. It squirts hugely more than Z. Dang!

Tate, Hahaha.... ya sign me up for one of those! I've stuck with the predator shafts for 15 years now right or wrong... hahaha. I use Z's or 314's turned to 12.3 and have for years.

RELAX man, no one's accusing you of anything. If you contact Pred. via FB they answer quik usually. Its possible the shaft is too thick/heavy at tip end. Interesting to hear what happens here. Keep us posted.

Thank you! Guess I will try that. Can't help wonder if all the 12.4 Revo do indeed squirt more than Z's. The one on Dr Daves video does not. Mine must be flawed somehow. If they send me another one that does the same thing, I don't want it! I will see what they can tell me I guess.... this otta be funny. Maybe we can get a couple good laughs out of it.... dang!!

obsespool said:

Thank you! Guess I will try that. Can't help wonder if all the 12.4 Revo do indeed squirt more than Z's. The one on Dr Daves video does not. Mine must be flawed somehow. If they send me another one that does the same thing, I don't want it! I will see what they can tell me I guess.... this otta be funny. Maybe we can get a couple good laughs out of it.... dang!!

Click to expand...

See if they'll trade for a 12.9. Not that much bigger and has very low defl. I test hit a 12.9 and was amazed at how it played. Very low squirt. I asked Pred why and they said because the shaft walls are thinner to get the diameter the front is lighter. Whatever, it works.

greyghost said:

a low deflection shaft DOES actually have the shaft deflecting more because physics.....if you want that CB to follow a straighter path you have to make the shaft "duck" out the way

Click to expand...

Shaft stiffness appears to have very little effect on squirt. It's all about the end mass.

pj
chgo

obsespool said:

Tate, Hahaha.... ya sign me up for one of those! I've stuck with the predator shafts for 15 years now right or wrong... hahaha. I use Z's or 314's turned to 12.3 and have for years.

Click to expand...

Personally I have not found the CF shafts to be less squirt than most wooden low squirt shafts. It's hard to beat the low squirt on a Z or Tiger Pro X. Now that I've adjusted to CF, I prefer the feel, consistency and quality of my CF shaft (which is a Becue from Europe). The shaft I like has a conical taper and is stiff. I've tried the pro taper shafts and don't think they are firm enough.

It seems to me engineering low squirt into a CF shaft takes some doing. It's very possible the tolerances were not met in your shaft.

3% ?

TATE said:

Personally I have not found the CF shafts to be less squirt than most wooden low squirt shafts. It's hard to beat the low squirt on a Z or Tiger Pro X. Now that I've adjusted to CF, I prefer the feel, consistency and quality of my CF shaft (which is a Becue from Europe). The shaft I like has a conical taper and is stiff. I've tried the pro taper shafts and don't think they are firm enough.

It seems to me engineering low squirt into a CF shaft takes some doing. It's very possible the tolerances were not met in your shaft.

Click to expand...

I hate to keep repeating this because it was second hand information to begin with and now I forget even where the secondhand info came from. Anyway, Predator only claimed three percent less deflection from the best wooden shafts, theirs I presume, to the REVO. What is supposed to be locked in stone is much better consistency. Predator should be able to provide that since they are making their own shaft blanks. I doubt everyone is doing that and some suppliers might take shortcuts to maintain or increase profits while keeping costs down.

If you go from a large diameter plain wooden shaft to a REVO or other quality CF shaft it might indeed feel wondrous. Swapping from top quality wood to a REVO wouldn't be nearly as impressive. I suspect the deflection properties of the best wood and REVO's may overlap when considering individual shafts.

I have hit with an 11.8 REVO that was supposed to have been a 12.4 and somehow ended up the smaller diameter. I would like to have that shaft. It has a long skinny pro taper while still having a very acceptable hit.

That is what I think will be the ultimate advantage of CF. Consistent quality shafts that can be made in profiles that can't be made in wood.

Kinda an inside secret that spliced shafts were originally employed to get rid of all of the poor quality shaft wood everyone had laying around in cull piles. I had old pictures of the spliced shafts having the glue ups very off center after final turnings. I was happy with my flat lay-ups.

The windings, the compounds, and the cure can all be very consistent with CF. That doesn't mean they will be. I'm mostly just watching developments.

Hu