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Bob Jewett
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01-10-2020, 10:52 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimGinPhx View Post
I'm saying exactly what the BCA rule states.
The first part of rule 38 is very clear.
Then the BCA throws in an Exception which contradicts the first part of the rule.
At the 2000 14.1 U.S. Open , this situation was discussed at length before the tournament began. Rule 38 was used without the Exception.
So by that ruling, which is very wrong, the object ball's edge must be about 1.125 inches or more from the headstring for it to be playable. If that is the way the TD set out the rules, he should never be a pool official again.

Is there any chance you misunderstood what was said?

Exceptions contradict what has been said before. That's the nature of exceptions.


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01-10-2020, 11:07 AM

Here is a diagram which may or may not make things clearer.

The 5 ball is exactly on the line. The cue ball is in hand in the kitchen. According to the official rules of 14.1, all of these balls are playable except the 4. According to some variants of the rules for one pocket, but not the official rules, the 5 and 6 are not legal targets but the 7 is -- the entire object ball must be out of the kitchen. According to the strange ruling above, the 7 is not a legal target and the 8 may or may not be a legal target depending on exactly how far its edge is from the cushion and which pocket it is played to.

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Last edited by Bob Jewett; 01-10-2020 at 11:11 AM.
  
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JimGinPhx
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01-10-2020, 11:11 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
So by that ruling, which is very wrong, the object ball's edge must be about 1.125 inches or more from the headstring for it to be playable. If that is the way the TD set out the rules, he should never be a pool official again.

Is there any chance you misunderstood what was said?

Exceptions contradict what has been said before. That's the nature of exceptions.
What was said at the pretournament meeting was if the player has cue ball in hand in the kitchen and an object ball is on the head string spot , to legally shot at that ball , contact would have to be outside the kitchen.
You could shoot at either side of the object ball , at that point the cue ball would either be on or just beyond the head string when contact was made.
This conversation went on for some time until that was clarified .
What about the ruling is wrong ?
It's clearly stated in the BCA rules.
  
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01-10-2020, 11:15 AM

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Originally Posted by JimGinPhx View Post
... What about the ruling is wrong ?
It's clearly stated in the BCA rules.
You have to include the exception. You can't just throw out the exception. It is part of the rules.

Do you agree with my comment about the legal/illegal targets in the diagram above?


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01-10-2020, 04:17 PM

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Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
You have to include the exception. You can't just throw out the exception. It is part of the rules.

Do you agree with my comment about the legal/illegal targets in the diagram above?
Yes , per the BCA rules. The BCA rules can be somewhat ambiguous and , they shouldn't be.
House rules are probably the clearest, everybody plays by the same local rules , whether they're correct or not.
What we've been discussing wouldn't fly in a lot of rooms.
The first part of rule 38 is clear. The Exception just confuses the whole rule IMHO.
  
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01-11-2020, 12:41 AM

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Originally Posted by JimGinPhx View Post
Yes , per the BCA rules. The BCA rules can be somewhat ambiguous and , they shouldn't be.
House rules are probably the clearest, everybody plays by the same local rules , whether they're correct or not.
What we've been discussing wouldn't fly in a lot of rooms.
The first part of rule 38 is clear. The Exception just confuses the whole rule IMHO.
That is an old rule set. The rules have been rewritten since then.


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01-11-2020, 07:47 AM

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Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
That is an old rule set. The rules have been rewritten since then.
When in Rome.
How is that scenario played out in national or world tournaments ?
  
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01-11-2020, 08:45 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimGinPhx View Post
When in Rome.
How is that scenario played out in national or world tournaments ?
Any ball that is outside the kitchen is playable directly. Outside = the center is on or below the headstring. A ball that is in the kitchen is playable if the center of the cue ball crosses the headstring before contacting the object ball.


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01-11-2020, 02:53 PM

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Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
A ball that is in the kitchen is playable if the center of the cue ball crosses the headstring before contacting the object ball.
Interesting. Then the 4 ball (from your diagram) could legally be cut into the left head pocket quite easily with the CB shot from the kitchen (toward the right side rail).That shot would never have occurred to me.

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01-11-2020, 07:43 PM

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Originally Posted by DynoDan View Post
Interesting. Then the 4 ball (from your diagram) could legally be cut into the left head pocket quite easily with the CB shot from the kitchen (toward the right side rail).That shot would never have occurred to me.
That shot is legal under WSR but not legal by CSI rules. I believe that CSI rules require the cue ball to contact a rail outside the kitchen first if the first ball it hits is in the cushion.

Besides the back-cut an obvious shot where there is a difference between the rule sets is if you play a swerve or masse shot out of the kitchen and then back in to hit a ball for a safe or make a ball hanging in the pocket. Those are allowed under WSR but not under CSI.


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01-13-2020, 06:14 PM

I would guess 99% of (traditional) 14.1 players, if queried, would report they have always adhered to the CSI version (cushion contact outside the kitchen required before legal first contact with any ball inside the kitchen), and any OB ruled ‘out’ is in play. Much simpler, since the only measurement/ruling needed is the starting ball-base position(s).
  
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01-13-2020, 06:42 PM

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Originally Posted by DynoDan View Post
I would guess 99% of (traditional) 14.1 players, if queried, would report they have always adhered to the CSI version (cushion contact outside the kitchen required before legal first contact with any ball inside the kitchen), and any OB ruled ‘out’ is in play. Much simpler, since the only measurement/ruling needed is the starting ball-base position(s).
Even under the CSI rule I think there is a reffing problem. If you want to return the cue ball to the end rail while taking a foul at 14.1, one way is to shoot nearly along the headstring to hit a spot outside the headstring and then spin back into the kitchen. The ref has to judge whether the cue ball touches the side cushion outside the kitchen. But generally the CSI rule is easier to apply.


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