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trob
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09-16-2019, 03:45 AM

Why do they need to.. the rules are pretty clear.

I wouldn’t come here. You would treat them the same way ignorant liberals treat anything President Trump does. You’ll scream and kick your feet and get angry no what they say so why bother. Look how dis respectful we are to every pro that comes on here... We’ve chased them off. They come on to give some advice or something that worked for them and a bunch of half ass no nothing gamblers scream them down with 1 terrible post after another. This forum needs a major house cleaning to make it a place pro’s and teachers actually want to come and post. Until they stay a way and I don’t blame them.



Quote:
Originally Posted by alstl View Post
"our 4 had a 2-2 record and was raised anyway. Others had a 1-2 record and were raised"

That's from Sleinen.

This is the biggest pool website in the nation. APA is the biggest pool league. You would think a representative of the APA could explain how players with those records in the tournament got raised and what the criteria is for raising the handicap during the national tournament.

On its face it appears to be asinine and I agree the team got screwed and will continue to believe that until a national representative explains exactly what happened and then compares that with the other teams which made it deep in the tournament but were not kicked out.


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Last edited by trob; 09-16-2019 at 03:50 AM.
  
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09-16-2019, 04:33 AM

I have been a long time APA player. I was also in Vegas during this last Team Championship. I have tried not to post on this thread. But I felt I needed to.

First off, the APA did not screw them out of anything. They make you certify your handicaps before hand and our league operator even warned us we had 2 players on the verge of going up before we even played the Qualifier to go.
They could have easily gone ahead and marked those players a skill level up so no questions would have been asked.

Secondly, the Scoresheets do matter. People can have 2 good games and bad game. The system should recognize this. Plus almost everyone knows when you go out there. Some people handle the pressure better than others and play better than their ranking. I always do. But the extra watchers are a great thing. They are looking for things that the scorekeepers may miss. Better players know how to manipulate the system. So they are there as added measure of safety and to keep things even as far as rankings. I personally watched a 2 and 3 play lock up safeties that those skill level players should never have even seen, much less executed.

Thirdly, the APA is a business. They own this tournament. They do everything they can to maintain the integrity of it. Everyone bashing the APA for doing their job should step back and think about it. If your mechanic tells you that you need new tires, you look at the tread and think heís an idiot. You donít go back. However, maybe that mechanic saw something besides just tire wear. Maybe heís concerned about dry rot.

After all that, I donít think the team had malicious intent. But I do think they were of the mindset. Maybe nothing will happen and we will just slide though.
Were they sandbagging, No. But did they try and manipulate the system, Yes. I saw close to 15,000 people at the event and this team was not the only one penalized. But it would be fair to say.
Less the .005 percent were penalized during the whole event.


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09-16-2019, 05:19 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by trob View Post

Look how dis respectful we are to every pro that comes on here... Weíve chased them off. They come on to give some advice or something that worked for them and a bunch of half ass no nothing gamblers scream them down with 1 terrible post after another. This forum needs a major house cleaning to make it a place proís and teachers actually want to come and post. Until they stay a way and I donít blame them.

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09-16-2019, 05:30 AM

It's that awful 23 rule. Sure you could bump your players up just to be safe...I guess. And then not be able to play because all your ratings are too high ; )

I think I rightly deserve to be the last post in this thread and it can now go away forever. The APA has no legal means, as of this time, to force pool players to play in their league. So rest easy for now and let them do whatever it is they're doing over there. But remain vigilant.
  
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09-16-2019, 05:39 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Celophanewrap View Post
Yes, thatís definitely a possibility, and a strong possibility, but itís still low innings.
Iím reasonably sure the system doesnít really take into consideration why you have low
innings, only that you have low innings. I am also of the impression that the system
doesnít really consider how you may have won or lost, only that you did. But I could be
wrong, I have heard theyíve been trying to revise some parts of the system, maybe some
other things figure into it now
I have also thought the same as you celo about how you win is never taken into account .

Take my match against that 7 in vegas i mentioned earlier.

Some details are fuzzy but some a re clear as day. He broke and ran 4 balls and played a safe on the 5. I kicked at the 5 at warp speed as the banger in me is prone to do and not only did i manage to make contact but hit it perfectly to fly down table hitting the corner pocket dead center and falling. The 6..7...8..and 9 were laid out perfect to make with simple stop shots..

I looked up after the kick and saw the observer who was in my line of sight making a note on his sheet. I assume he was making a note of a desperate dumb luck shot cause it sure was not skill that made that 5.

That lucky shot allowed me to go up 6-4 that rack in 0 innings whereas it could have easily been him up 10-0 if i had not lucked in that 5 ball. All the scoresheet shows is i won that rack 6-4 making me look better thwn i really am. Several other incidents like that in my match thwt got my opponent shaking his head and obviously frustrwting him and affecting his performance to the point where i dang near beat him after being down 18-0.

Going strictly by the scoresheet you woukd think i am better than a 5 whereas an observer woukd see all the nuances that allowed me to score as many as he did once i got to the table.

I have no doubt that if an observer had not watched my matches i woukd have been raised going strictly by the scoresheets.
  
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09-16-2019, 05:44 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by JazzyJeff87 View Post
It's that awful 23 rule. Sure you could bump your players up just to be safe...I guess. And then not be able to play because all your ratings are too high ; )

I think I rightly deserve to be the last post in this thread and it can now go away forever. The APA has no legal means, as of this time, to force pool players to play in their league. So rest easy for now and let them do whatever it is they're doing over there. But remain vigilant.
Yea....yall non league players continue remaining vigilant watching for the next apa bashing thread so yall can tell them whats wrong with the most succesfull league thats over 4 times larger than any other league.
  
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JazzyJeff87
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09-16-2019, 06:44 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by lorider View Post
Yea....yall non league players continue remaining vigilant watching for the next apa bashing thread so yall can tell them whats wrong with the most succesfull league thats over 4 times larger than any other league.
I don't mind leagues so much, except when they interfere with me getting a table. As others have mentioned the leagues are a necessary evil to keep the pool halls open. Apa on my friend
  
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09-16-2019, 09:39 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Celophanewrap View Post
I believe the observers ensure an accurate score sheet more than anything else.
I believe they also record additional notes and have more statistical categories
that might tell the story of the match in more detail then even an accurate score sheet.
I pretty sure the APAís hope is to have enthusiastic LOs that are experienced players
and have some background in pool. These are the people that are the observers. There
are times Iíd also like to know what qualifies an observer to be be an observer.
Iím pretty sure there is at the very least a clinic or series of clinics or classes or
workshops that are required before an LO is certified as an observer
And...we are back to the system not being objective.

This is an inherent flaw in every handicapping system. Fargo seems like the best so far. Previously the best I witnessed was the old Colorado Billiards Association. Which was completely subjective by a committee of the room owners.


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09-16-2019, 10:05 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by sixpack View Post
And...we are back to the system not being objective.

This is an inherent flaw in every handicapping system. Fargo seems like the best so far. Previously the best I witnessed was the old Colorado Billiards Association. Which was completely subjective by a committee of the room owners.
In The APA the players are charged with keeping score. I think anytime you include a human element
you run the risk of human things, like mistakes, manipulation, perhaps even some cheating.
A great deal is left to a person's honor and integrity.

Last edited by Celophanewrap; 09-16-2019 at 10:08 AM.
  
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09-16-2019, 10:22 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Celophanewrap View Post
In The APA the players are charged with keeping score. I think anytime you include a human element
you run the risk of human things, like mistakes, manipulation, perhaps even some cheating.
A great deal is left to a person's honor and integrity.
I agree with you. Not objective.


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09-16-2019, 12:16 PM

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Originally Posted by sixpack View Post
I agree with you. Not objective.
But an excellent working system when done properly
  
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09-16-2019, 02:13 PM

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Originally Posted by lorider View Post
Its been said many times on here apa is not for everyone. I guess its true for a guy who cwn run a 100 but is only an apa 6. Hell i am a 6 and i cwnt run a rwck let alone a 100.

Wtf is a 100 ball runner doing to only be an apa 6 ?
In my brief conversation with him regarding the subject, it was his first session, and he doesn't play 8-ball as well as he does 9-ball. He probably only played enough matches to qualify to play in LTC's....

I'll let you know more after he beats my brains in tomorrow night, he's vacationing near here and we get together to play when he's nearby always fun.


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09-16-2019, 05:11 PM

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Originally Posted by mvp View Post
Csi you donít need league plays and itís around 150 to enter!
For teams you need league plays. Our BCA requires 4 weeks for state and 8 for Vegas. I dont remember if it's the same for singles.
VNEA requires 12 weeks to go to Vegas for any event.


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09-16-2019, 06:17 PM

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Originally Posted by JolietJames View Post
For teams you need league plays. Our BCA requires 4 weeks for state and 8 for Vegas. I dont remember if it's the same for singles.
VNEA requires 12 weeks to go to Vegas for any event.
I believe for singles you don't need weeks played at the national tourney. Just a membership and entry fee.


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09-17-2019, 10:02 AM

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Originally Posted by JazzyJeff87 View Post
I don't mind leagues so much, except when they interfere with me getting a table. As others have mentioned the leagues are a necessary evil to keep the pool halls open. Apa on my friend
Evil? Folks like to shoot pool, that can't be evil, can it ? lol

Seriously, you can only play in your basement so many times, or play the same buddy, over and over. League are good for business, and good for recruiting folks to the sport. No different than a softball league. Folks like to be active and compete at stuff they like.

If no leagues, how the hell is the sport going to grow. Folks that only own a table in their basement don't really contribute much to the sport other than that first purchase. heck, they might not even buy magic chalk after that lol


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