Has anyone heard of the 1st 3, last 3, and everything in between system?

Pete

Pete

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Hi Guys,

I love straightpool, but my high run is still only 16 balls. My friend is a straightpool player (won't play any other game), and has a high run of 122. I've seen him run 40s playing me (not really trying and also trying to keep me in the game). He told me that he thinks I get lost in all the mess on the table. So he wants to teach me this system (1st 3, last 3, and everything in between system).

Does anyone know it?

Billiardpete out
 
acedotcom

acedotcom

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
billiardpete said:
Hi Guys,

I love straightpool, but my high run is still only 16 balls. My friend is a straightpool player (won't play any other game), and has a high run of 122. I've seen him run 40s playing me (not really trying and also trying to keep me in the game). He told me that he thinks I get lost in all the mess on the table. So he wants to teach me this system (1st 3, last 3, and everything in between system).

Does anyone know it?

Billiardpete out
Click to expand...

I don't know it, but I like the sound of it. If it's as simple as concentrating on the first 3 to get off on a good foot, and concentrating on the last 3 to make sure you end up with a good break shot, I think I could benefit from it. I was playing a guy some cheap games to 50 yesterday for $10 and though I beat him easily, I never ran more than 18 balls. I would've loved to hit him with a 30. :D
 
Kevin

Kevin

Dr. Kevorkian of Threads
Silver Member
Ditto. Getting started well, without running into trouble on the bottom rail congestion, and getting onto the last 3 balls well spells the difference between his 122 and your 16. Learning patterns that clean up the trouble balls and useless balls, and knowing which is which, is the game in a nutshell. Surprise your friend, secretly buy Phil Capelle's book "Play your best Straight Pool" and practice away from your friend to work on some of those ideas could be a great help, in addition to getting copies of any Sigel/Mizerak/West/Mathews/Reyes/Zuglan/Schmidt/ other well executed runs of straight pool. 16 could be 29 or 43 or more with decent break shots which can be learned.
 
bruin70

bruin70

don't wannabe M0DERATOR
Silver Member
maybe it's first 3 to open the rack - last 3 to set up the next, and pocket everything in between.

i likes a system with lots'o flexibility.
 
JimS

JimS

Grandpa & his grand boys.
Silver Member
I'm guessing it means to think of, and play position for, the next three balls to be shot, like in 9 ball, and have a plan for the last three to set up the break shot. Then, don't get worried about all the other balls on the table until it's time to think about them. Just my guess because I've never heard of this "system".
 
C

Cameron Smith

is kind of hungry...
Silver Member
The first three refers to clearing off some balls and then breaking into the pack. You want clear some balls first because when you re-break you can create clusters on the rails if you don't. The last three is getting position on the break ball.

Personally I like Phil Capelles idea which is to divide the rack up into 3 sections of 5. The first and last section are what I described in the previous paragraph, and the middle is everything in between.
 
bruin70

bruin70

don't wannabe M0DERATOR
Silver Member
Cameron Smith said:
The first three refers to clearing off some balls and then breaking into the pack. You want clear some balls first because when you re-break you can create clusters on the rails if you don't. The last three is getting position on the break ball.

Personally I like Phil Capelles idea which is to divide the rack up into 3 sections of 5. The first and last section are what I described in the previous paragraph, and the middle is everything in between.
Click to expand...


well, apparanty 3/3 is not a popular "system" since there's hardly a nod on this thread by any of the good players we have here. i didn't think there would be.

i don't even know if it deserves to be called a "system" since all one is doing is identifying the beginning, middle, and end rack... and you have to recognize something before you can do anything about it.

5/5 sounds even MORE vague, as one is expanding the beginning and end, and shortening the middle. most players will identify the last 3 as critical, while the beginning depends on the initial spread.

i think the best system is "understand one's self". that's what 14.1 is all about. it offers too many variables for too many differently skill leveled players for anyone to be pedantic passed a few basic principles.
 
Gerry

Gerry

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I have read about different "systems" to play 14.1. I personally don't think in terms of systems as much as theory. There are MANY theorem?(term) to get you playing well, but the more I learn about the intricacies of the game the more I play by the "what not to do" theory. This means I only need to remember 3 to 4 key tenants of what NOT to do while running balls. This may not be the best way for beginners, but if you are running 40+ balls consistently I feel the things that get you into trouble and kill runs are the bad habits, or "the not to do's".

what are mine you ask?....

1. DO NOT go into the back of the rack without a VERY good key ball.

to be continued

Gerry
 
bruin70

bruin70

don't wannabe M0DERATOR
Silver Member
Gerry said:
I have read about different "systems" to play 14.1. I personally don't think in terms of systems as much as theory. There are MANY theorem?(term) to get you playing well, but the more I learn about the intricacies of the game the more I play by the "what not to do" theory. This means I only need to remember 3 to 4 key tenants of what NOT to do while running balls. This may not ,,,,,,,,

Gerry
Click to expand...

that's a very good idea, gerry....which is why the insurance ball is such an important concept,,,in case anything DOES go wrong. and if you listen to 14.1 commentators, a large % of their commentary deals with what to avoid.
 
Bob Jewett

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
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billiardpete said:
... (1st 3, last 3, and everything in between system).

Does anyone know it?
...
Click to expand...
I never heard of it, but I did hear Caras say that Willie Mosconi was just a middle-of-the-pack player until he perfected his play on the last five balls.

I think racks vary too much in character to split them 3-middle-3. If you use a power break (like some of the Europeans) it's often just a matter of getting the balls off the table since there will be no clusters. With a finesse break, a rack might go two balls and rebreak, two more balls and rebreak, three balls and rebreak and then clear up to the key ball.
 
Tin Man

Tin Man

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
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crazy systems

The system I personally recommend is last 3/quick bite to eat/first 3/middle. Everyone agrees that the last 3 are very important to handle correctly, why wait until the end of the run to address them. You should play it like 8 ball, and deal with them right up front.

OK, it was funnier before I typed it. Get off my back muck.

Anyway, I personally believe that what everyone is trying to say is that most players could significantly improve their play by giving more attention to the last few shots, and that having a breakball doesn't do you any good if you can't consistantly get good shape on it. Bottom line, instead of picking out one break ball to save, try picking out the last three and work around them when possible.

I still maintain that the best way to learn straight pool is George Fel's WP list in Mastering Pool, his analysis, and some sessions with me for $12,000 a rack.
 
Vahmurka

Vahmurka

...and I get all da rolls
Silver Member
Gerry said:
the more I learn about the intricacies of the game the more I play by the "what not to do" theory. This means I only need to remember 3 to 4 key tenants of what NOT to do while running balls.

1. DO NOT go into the back of the rack without a VERY good key ball.

to be continued

Gerry
Click to expand...
That's a nice point, probably deserving a separate thread.
 
dmgwalsh

dmgwalsh

Straight Pool Fanatic
Silver Member
Bob Jewett said:
I never heard of it, but I did hear Caras say that Willie Mosconi was just a middle-of-the-pack player until he perfected his play on the last five balls.
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Mr. Jewett: I think i read somewhere that Mosconi got much better on his road trip with Greenleaf, after watching and copying Greenleaf's tendency to get much tighter pinpoint shape. Have you heard anything like this? What do you think?
 
Bob Jewett

Bob Jewett

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dmgwalsh said:
Mr. Jewett: I think i read somewhere that Mosconi got much better on his road trip with Greenleaf, after watching and copying Greenleaf's tendency to get much tighter pinpoint shape. Have you heard anything like this? What do you think?
Click to expand...
I think that story is in one or both of Mosconi's instructional books. Willie was supposed to have won most of the matches in the second half of the tour, but there was always some question about Ralph's chemical balance.

What is pretty sure is that the "traditional" players generally kept much closer position than you see from the mostly nine ball players today.
 
W

Williebetmore

Member, .25% Club
Silver Member
Bob Jewett said:
I think that story is in one or both of Mosconi's instructional books. Willie was supposed to have won most of the matches in the second half of the tour, but there was always some question about Ralph's chemical balance.

What is pretty sure is that the "traditional" players generally kept much closer position than you see from the mostly nine ball players today.
Click to expand...

BJ,
The story is in Mosconi's biography - he watched Greenleaf play this type of close position, emulated him, and took his game to its ultimate high level.

I'm not really sure there was any question about Greenleaf's chemical balance - even Willie (probably his greatest admirer) reported Greenleaf was drunk most of the time.

In addition, this was during their second exhibition tour; and Willie reports that Greenleaf was well past his prime (in their first tour, Willie was well before his prime). They never matched up at "top form", though Willie was often quoted as saying that Greenleaf was the only pool player that he believed was his equal.

P.S. - in a previous thread on "close position", sjm opined that it was much more important with the old mud balls and slow cloth. Break shots on such equipment yielded very poor results unless you were very close to the break ball.
 
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