What happened to the cue market lately?

Cuemaster98

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Maybe it's summer but the cue market seem to be dead. I was speaking with a couple of friends we are collectors and they are saying that the dealers and resellers are killing the market with higer prices for custom cues to a point that is not affordable for many. I agree somewhat about the prices but I think it has to do more with the fact that dealers and resellers only looks favourably toward cues that they are able to flip quickly for a profit and unfortunately that haved killed the market for the other really good cues.

It's no secret that Southwest custom cue is by far one of the most liquid cue in the market today and prices are definitely going higher for more desirable combination of woods, etc. Next to Southwest, you have Tim Scruggs and older JW seem to be moving at decent rate but with prices going higher...even their sales seem to have slowed. There are just so many other amazing playing cues out in the market that should be getting the same attention but are just not and I just can't seem to understand why. My only explaination that is that high end cues fall under Luxury item sales which have been in decline for years and so understandable the cue market is affected.

Not sure if there is a branding issue for 2nd Tier custom cues like Tascarella, Paul Mottey, Kikel, McDaniel, Ed Young, McWorter, Richard Harris, Sugar Tree, Cog, etc... or if it really a pricing issue where the buyers are so confused with rising prices that they are afraid to buy to be the one holding the cue and not be able to get what they paid. Is reseller value something that buyers are now looking at when buying higher end cues? I always tell my friend that if you want to invest in cues, you better off playing the stock market....but I've lost enough money there that I wish I had them in cues lol :)

When you talking about 3rd tier cues, it's even worse in this market :(

I think resellers and dealers need to be able to communicate values of cues better in the market. The heavily branded cue like Southwest is taking all the attention, leaving buyers with no confident in the other excellent cues. I'm starting to see dealer and reseller trying to branch out their focus on other higher end cues but not sure if it a little late into the game now. Knowing that ebony is highly valued in SW, I wonder if this premium wood also translate to other quality cue builders?

Feedback or solutions?

Br,
Duc.
 
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Big-Tattoo

I'm back
Silver Member
Well written Duc.
I hate to see what the Dealers are doing with SW, Blue Grass and some other Brands. If you paid that high price and you found out that the Cue not plays what you are looking for you never get your money back. Will see what the future brings. RG
 

Joqpub4

AZB GOLD
Silver Member
No idea

I have no idea what is going on... i'm not a dealer or a reseller.. i buy cues that interest me and when i feel like they aren't things i'm going to want to shoot with again, I move them... or try to

What I find amazing is, when you look at the workmanship in a cue it is really hard to determine a value. I have friends who ask me, what is it worth... my comment is, it is worth what the market will bear, no more ... no less... # of veneers, recuts, ivory content (good and bad), woods, etc... so hard to gauge

However, If you aren't giving something away, it's hard to move. As a friend of mine says, they don't eat... so if i can't get my minimum price i tend to just sit on them.

Also Customs vs semi customs vs Production is an interesting discussion... Predators / Mezz / etc... move SOOO much faster than a semi custom or custom it's unreal.

I'm interested to hear others thoughts...

-Joe

BTW - I'm interested in playability... not so much in the high-end artistic design to just look at...
 

sciarco

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It's too much money for the average working stiff there are other priorities in life and family, $500 to $1000 is all i would pay for a cue but that's only my opinion.
 

measureman

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I see plain Jane BEM cues with simple silver rings made by a high end cue maker going for $2000 or more.
That's nuts.
 

measureman

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It's too much money for the average working stiff there are other priorities in life and family, $500 to $1000 is all i would pay for a cue but that's only my opinion.

For me $500 out of pocket is my limit.
Now if I sell a cue for X dollars I could put $500 to it and exceed $500.
Did that make sense?
 

Texas Carom Club

9ball did to billiards what hiphop did to america
Silver Member
Yup

Also if a cue doesn't sell in 2 seconds now they have these raffle give aways

Then the winner puts it up for more than the original sell was selling for ,
 

Joqpub4

AZB GOLD
Silver Member
another thing

How does a house cue conversion from any cuemaker cost more than $1k?? I don't care who it is... i don't understand that ...

I am consistently baffled

-Joe
 

cuesblues

cue accumulator
Silver Member
I don't think the dealers are a problem, and the higher prices aren't a bad thing, if the dealers make money that doesn't hurt the secondary market.
These days the price has to be really low no matter what the original price is.
As soon as someone starts talking about cost directly from the cuemaker, you know the price will be too high.
For most cues the price in the secondary market has to be like 40 percent to start
There are exception, like 10 percent of the cues that hit the market, but overall the price has to start low and drop from there...if you really want to sell it.

For years people have been talking about low deflection, and we're starting to see lots of guys who can afford nice cues spending their money on a $1500 production cue like Mezz and Revo.
I'm talking about guys who used to buy Cognocenti or James White cues, like nice customs just to play with.
Now it's Revo, and a cool new case.
JMO
 

measureman

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I don't think the dealers are a problem, and the higher prices aren't a bad thing, if the dealers make money that doesn't hurt the secondary market.
These days the price has to be really low no matter what the original price is.
As soon as someone starts talking about cost directly from the cuemaker, you know the price will be too high.
For most cues the price in the secondary market has to be like 40 percent to start
There are exception, like 10 percent of the cues that hit the market, but overall the price has to start low and drop from there...if you really want to sell it.

For years people have been talking about low deflection, and we're starting to see lots of guys who can afford nice cues spending their money on a $1500 production cue like Mezz and Revo.
I'm talking about guys who used to buy Cognocenti or James White cues, like nice customs just to play with.
Now it's Revo, and a cool new case.
JMO


Good post Ted.
I told you years ago to collect Lucasi cues.
Just look at Mezz and Revo.
$1500 for a Mezz or Revo!
Insane i say.
 

sciarco

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The most i spent on a custom was $600 and didn't like how it played, so than i tried a Tiger sneaky and that's my player i had a leather wrap installed perfect for me got rid of the custom only have one cue and a breaker that's it no more.
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Cue market................

has been hyper-inflated for a while now. Prices on some cues are stupidly out-of-line. I don't see how all the makers are staying in business.
 

M.G.

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Maybe it's summer but the cue market seem to be dead. I was speaking with a couple of friends we are collectors and they are saying that the dealers and resellers are killing the market with higer prices for custom cues to a point that is not affordable for many.
....
Feedback or solutions?


I'm very confused - what is the actual problem you want to talk about?
Rising prices?

As for the rest, I'm very happy the custom "market" is dead.
Absolutely great production cues did kill it. Heck, a 190$ chinese Cuetec will get you through the Mosconi cup now.
There simply is no need for expensive or custom cues anymore.
If you are after looks you buy a Mezz or a Exceed and you're done. Upside is, Mezz sells extremely well on the 2nd market.

And the cuemakers themselved killed it with their behaviour and resistance to making actual LD shafts.

I won't shed a tear. For 10 cuemakers there's maybe 1/2 I could accept.

Cheers,
M
 

lorider

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Like measureman I have no interest in a cue over 500.00 anymore. I once paid 2500.00 for a cue and kept it a few years and sold it for the same 2500.00 less than a week after I put it up for sale. Maybe I was lucky.

The strange part about it is the guy walks up to me and says..

Him.....i heard you have your cue for sale.
Me...yeah ...that's rich.
Him...how much ?
Me...2500.00
Him...how much did you pay for it ?

Now ordinarily I would reply none of your business but I have known this guy for a dozen years and we are pretty friendly.

Me. .. 2500.00....you can ask the guy I bought it from.
Him....no need....i will give you 2500.00 tomorrow.
Me ...you just bought it.

There is only one cue that I would like to have but I aint paying 5,000.00 for it.
 

maha

from way back when
Silver Member
first of all sellers or buyer cant kill a market that has a wide audience. just like realtors cant inflate house prices.

it is all supply and demand. simple as that.

as prices of anything rise, less people can afford or want to buy. that is how it works. no underlying thing can change that in an open market. and those that cannot afford to buy many of those are bitter about it. too bad. you dont drive a new car anyway.
 

Cuemaster98

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The problem is the dead cue market (no one buying anymore like back in the old days). I partially agreed that rising prices may be a caused to this market condition but clearly demand and supply due to the economy is the main cause (luxury watches are almost just as bad...buyer market right now).

Just wanted to start a discussion to see if anyone had any ideas on how to restart this market again :) I know recently a lot of nice cues have been moved through raffle pretty consistently. I thought if sellers educate buyers on playability and quality instead of resell values that we can start to expand the market portfolio to include branding for other great cues in the market. If guys buying 500.00 to 1000.00 production cues understand that if you buy a 2K plus quality cues you'll have a better investment in your game and cue in the long run than maybe more higher end cues would be sold. if you didn't like a cue you paid 2500 got back close to what you paid..you're doing good. Just have find a cue that suit your playing style. Everyone is different but finding a high quality cue (one that rule them all :) will make the game that much more enjoyable IMO.

I was one of the first few to try the revo in demo stage and liked it but when I got it...it couldn't compared to any of my custom cues in term of feel and playbility IMHO. Not saying they are not good, I've a friend that solely play with his Revo and most pro I know are using them for breaking. Market for revo was hot when it was limited but now that the shaft is for sales...all the Revo cue are harder to move.






I'm very confused - what is the actual problem you want to talk about?
Rising prices?
M
 
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skip100

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
On one hand people complain about cues being too expensive and hoarded by flippers, and on the other hand they complain no one buys cues any more and they have to take huge haircuts on good stuff. Hard to see both of them being true.
 

M.G.

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Just wanted to start a discussion to see if anyone had any ideas on how to restart this market again :) I know recently a lot of nice cues have been moved through raffle pretty consistently. I thought if sellers educate buyers on playability and quality instead of resell values that we can start to expand the market portfolio to include branding for other great cues in the market.

Thanks for clarifying.

But you've said it for yourself - the market has become a speculators' market, not a players' market. Remove that element and you'll succeed.

You're also touching a point regarding quality I was trying to make with my Cuetec statement: production cues offer less hassle, more quality, easy returnability, more repairability (ie, shaft broken? Just get a new production one, will most probably play quite the same. Want a different one? Just get a Tiger, Predator, OB with correct joint...).

I stand by this - no custom cue (maker) will be able to match that, for that price.
Cue makers are not even interested to match these advantages in any way.
Maybe they should focus on developing a nice butt and leave the shafts to the OBs and the like?

Restart the market:
- Slash the prices to something reasonable again.
- Buy, repair/refurbish, sell at sensible price.
- A lot of people have said 500$, so take that as an indication. It's also my hard price point.
- Even go as far to partner up with cuemaker(s) offering a cue
o in 3-4 weeks (yes, I'm serious)
o at 500$
o with warranty
o with reasonable decorations or copying a look the customer likes
- Offer only quality and
- Punish people actively moving bad cues (warped, ...)
- Find a cue that is a match for your customer

Cheers,
M
 

Anthony_Beeler

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The ivory rule/ban has killed the market. Custom cue makers are now having to look for new ways to create high-dollar cues. Ebony and ivory use to be top of the line for most makers with other materials being lower end. Not sure how this is going to play out. I can't imagine someone paying the same price for an ebony and elforyn cue that they did for one with ivory.

Collectors are also afraid to buy ivory cues over state lines because it is illegal and they don't won't to pay the same price for substitute materials that they did for ivory. Furthermore, the cuemakers don't want to get less money for building a product out of substitutes. This creates a perfect storm in the industry, a paradox left unresolved for the time being.

Sent from my iPhone using AzBilliards Forums
 
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cubswin

Just call me Joe...
Silver Member
Joss West were affordable a year ago, now they are not.

It is summer, which has less people playing as well. I notice that low end customs are now pushing 4-500 where they were 2-300 5 years ago. Talking sneaky's and some plain janes.

Don't know that it kills the cue market, but it is different. Everyone wants top dollar, those that don't move cues pretty quickly.
 
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