How league operators take more than they give

That is mildly humorous... APA and TAP are the same story, different name (in my opinion)...


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Get em SBC!

Does TAP have within their rules a level of standards for the equipment that they use
during league play?

SBC...You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but please don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. I don't doubt what you are saying about the particular APA LO(s). That said, those LO's are in the minority in the APA (can't speak to TAP). There have always been shady league operators, tournament promoters, etc. Very few APA LO's do this kind of "threatening" behavior. Most are upstanding, care about their players, and care about pool in general. The truth is that without league play, many rooms like yours would be out of business (and many have closed, for many reasons). League play has kept many a room open, in the face of adversity (rising costs,changes in law, local economy, etc). There are many choices for league play in nationally sanctioned leagues. They are all good for pool.

Like you, I prefer 9' tables too...but I don't go to the extent of calling 7' tables 'bastard play', or any of the other derogatory terms that people are wont to label league play (it does seem that APA gets the brunt of these type of complaints. As a former APA LO, imo the league operator deserves every cent they earn, because they have to put up with whiners like you...and there are plenty of those. BTW, just for your education, unless an LO has at least 200 teams playing year round, the league is NOT a cash cow by any means...unless you consider making a net income of $50K+ for all the hassle of running the league, a big income "ripping off the players"!

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

SBC said:

Here in upstate NY league operators from the APA are running scared. Scared they will lose their cash cows with the threat of TAP league and new pool rooms like mine in Syracuse. They threaten to pull teams from rooms that have hosted them and tell their players to boycott others. All because they don't want to lose money. These guys don't care about pool.

They have employed shady tactics in Binghampton, Utica and Syracuse. They don't care the damage it does to pool because any bar with a crappy Valley table is good enough for them. But is that good enough for pool?

I have never been a fan of leagues. I don't see them generating strong players with a love of the history this game has or concern for it's present state. The growth of leagues has changed things for the worse IMO.

Here in central New York there has been a renaissance of sorts. In my room, The New Salt City Billiards, we cater to players who have played all their lives on big tables, playing a variety of games. Utica has a TAP league started by concerned players and now Binghamton has started as well. The tactics of APA here are not going unnoticed and are going to be met with resistance.

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SBC...I'm sorry, but your rhetoric says something different than just "letting people know how it is here". People are mostly adults, who choose their recreational activities based on what they want to do. The APA "mindset" is ALL about growing the game...which is one reason why I chose to purchase an APA franchise almost 30 years ago...and why APA is the gorilla in the room with other leagues. That's why coaching is allowed, and defense is taught, as a part of the game. 2/s, 3's & 4's are the backbone of all leagues (with the exception of "masters" leagues). Just because someone is a lower level player doesn't mean they don't care about getting better. Hundreds of them contact me every year, looking for instruction on how to get better.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

SBC said:

Whiners like me?

Sir I'm just letting people know how it is here and what they are actively doing to undermine at least 3 rooms here.

Their mindset has nothing to do with growing the game or payers improving. Recruiting a stream of 2s and 3s to fill more teams and exert control....that is the motive here.

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You dont seem to get it

SBC said:

Scott Lee said:

SBC...9'

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com[/QUOTe

Sir I'm just letting people know how it is here and what they are actively doing to undermine at least 3 rooms here.

Their mindset has nothing to do with growing the game or players improving. Recruiting a stream of 2s and 3s to fill more teams and exert control....that is the motive here.

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Leagues don't need to care about players. Players need to care about players and the game. The only things leagues need to do is keep the lights on, that's it.

Leagues, the APA most importantly allows people who CANT PLAY AT ALL to compete, contribute, participate meaningfully and sometimes win and all of that is good for Pool and keeps the lights on.

Once a player moves their level of play up and their understanding of the game up its up to them to seek higher levels of competition. They can then move to the BCA or handicapped PRO-AM tournaments, but for that to happen they have to have a place to play and the light need to be on.

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My opinion of both Tap and APA is similar. Both are almost identical. In Tap you play one match per night for about ten bucks. That usually takes less than an hour. The rest of the night you sit around wondering wttf did I do this for? Not sure what Apa charges but hear it's about the same..

Quesports said:

My opinion of both Tap and APA is similar. Both are almost identical. In Tap you play one match per night for about ten bucks. That usually takes less than an hour. The rest of the night you sit around wondering wttf did I do this for? Not sure what Apa charges but hear it's about the same..

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The APA doesn't have a standard price per match. Here it's $6 per match or $30 per team
per match, So if you're a Double Jeopardy your fees are $60 per night. But I have heard
that in some areas it can be as much as $12 per player per match

As Scott stated...not all lo's are like what you claim those in your area are. Then again ...if they are pike you claim...ao what ? Apa franchises are a business. Name me a business owner who is going to roll over and play dead when some one tries to cut into their profits and I will name that person as some one who will not be in business for long. No one...and I mean no one supports pool of pool players strictly for the love of the game. If they do they will go broke fast.

You just opened a pool hall. What if some one opened one across the street and tried to take your customers ? What are you gonna do ? Roll over and play dead or do whatever you can ...legally.. to keep your customers.


Now on the flip side you have lo's like I do in my area. Apa has pretty much got a lock on this area. But he has not been heavy handed when other leagues have attempted to start up.

A few years ago Napa started up here. It lasted about a year. Some people like myself played both and my apa lo knew that and never said a word. Our Napa lo also continued to play apa while running his league. The 2 lo's got along great.

Last year tap started up. It last one session before teams dropped out. Some apa members ..myself included played both leagues. Most people around here did not care for that league. The apa lo never said a negative word about tap.

Just recently usapl started up. We are in our 2nd session and he just started another division on a different night. Like the other leagues you have people such as myself playing in both leagues. So far people around here have been more receptive to usapl than they were to Napa or tap.

My spa lo is well aware that I pls both and we have had discussions about the merits of both leagues and he has never said anything negative about any other league. And like the tap lo our usapl lo also continues to play apa. I hope usapl continues to flourish here as I really like playing in it but have no desire to quit apa.

Many times i have read threads on here about league problems in other areas...such as yours and we just never seem to have those kind of problems in my area.

Quesports said:

My opinion of both Tap and APA is similar.[...]

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While you are exploring options, I think you should look at USAPL. It is match play and totally integrated with Fargo Ratings. Games go into the system the night they are entered, and most are entered with a mobile scoring APP.

Of course many league players are casual and just looking for a fun night out. This is not a bad thing. What's bad, though, is when the league play is so separated from the more serious competitive play that the transition from a slightly more serious league player to a "player" is not seamless.

I think Fargo Ratings helps this because the league player who is, say, rated 419 who would never have thought of entering a tournament sees the occasional "450 and under" tournament and starts to think about it a bit more.

There are I think 57 active USAPL divisions in New England, mostly MA. And in the last few weeks I've seen them pop up in Baton Rouge LA, Greenville SC, Birmingham AL, and New Orleans, LA.

Celophanewrap said:

The APA doesn't have a standard price per match. Here it's $6 per match or $30 per team
per match, So if you're a Double Jeopardy your fees are $60 per night. But I have heard
that in some areas it can be as much as $12 per player per match

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Our fees are 7.00 in both apa and usapl. Tap was 8.00. I dont recall what Napa was as I played for free. My lo's choice not mine. I never did ask why lol.

mikepage said:

While you are exploring options, I think you should look at USAPL. It is match play and totally integrated with Fargo Ratings. Games go into the system the night they are entered, and most are entered with a mobile scoring APP.

Of course many league players are casual and just looking for a fun night out. This is not a bad thing. What's bad, though, is when the league play is so separated from the more serious competitive play that the transition from a slightly more serious league player to a "player" is not seamless.

I think Fargo Ratings helps this because the league player who is, say, rated 419 who would never have thought of entering a tournament sees the occasional "450 and under" tournament and starts to think about it a bit more.

There are I think 57 active USAPL divisions in New England, mostly MA. And in the last few weeks I've seen them pop up in Baton Rouge LA, Greenville SC, Birmingham AL, and New Orleans, LA.

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Yea Mike I have played in great leagues. Played in the ACS for a couple years probably the best league system I have played in. Sadly neither are an option where I am.

The rest of my TAP nightmare went like this. I was told they had a full team, nope they only had 4 players not five. So as the new guy I was asked to play the extra match the first two weeks. So it was costing me around $20.00 for two hours of pool a night. Plus I was driving 35 miles one way. After the second week of that nonsense the team dissolved! So after paying the TAP dues of $20.00 plus the 4 matches I played I was out $60.00 and played pool for about 4 hours max. Myself I was not too unhappy the team imploded after two weeks. What a joke!

I think you should stop calling them leagues! Leagues I grew up with, whether they be bowling, pool, golf...whatever, were interested in advancing their sport, and having fun. I call them UNIONS today!

SBC said:

We have competition that is heavily APA. APA players who wanted to play out of our room were forbidden to. A few teams quit based on principle.

Our room has 90 percent of the old timers and the better big table players. It's a room like days gone by. When guys want to improve, they get off the small tables and play better players, with or without handicaps. Beating a housewife just isn't the same. Pool rooms should have a hierarchy based on ability on the table.

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It sounds like you have a great room with great clientele.However, there are reasons that rooms like yours are now the exception rather than the norm. Very few people today want to spend hours in a pool room whether it be to practice or match up. Those of us that love spending our time like that are few and far between. Most players today are casual, they want a place to have some drinks, let the old lady dance or do some karaoke, and play a couple games of pool for beers.

I have had a home table for years. Friends would come over shoot for a few hours and that was the extent of their pool life.

So let's look at some of the way APA has changed that for 3 of my closest friends. Since I started an APA team :

- All 3 have purchased their own cue. 2 players hxt's and a mcdermott.
- 2 of them purchases a break/jump cue
-1 of them is currently in the market for a cheaper Schonn.
-They all get excited about earning different APA patches
-They get the APA magazine, and actually read about pool, tips, and tricks
- Since we played tricups at a large pool hall, they have gone back a couple times and entered Saturday night Scotch doubles tournaments.

BTW, two of them are APA 3's and one just got bumped up to a 4 and was ecstatic that his practice was paying off.

APA is bad for pool? I would hate for them to run into an 'expert" who tried to tell them that bar league pool is a joke, and 7 ft tables "ain't real pool". BTW, we play APA on 9 ft. Gold Crowns. It makes no difference to them. and it sure as heck don't turn them into APA 6's when they come to my house and shoot on my Valley.

APA ain't bad for pool. APA is the only thing keeping pool alive in many places.