Advice on unanswered questions

scottjen26

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Long post (surprise)...

Lately some topics have come up in the forums that I can completely relate too, things I've been thinking about for a while. So while I'm watching those threads for discussion and potential answers, I thought I'd put them together in one thread here in the hope that someone can shed light on 1 or more of the questions. As posted in the PSR thread, I realized lately that I keep tweaking things while I'm searching for answers, and I feel like if I could put some of these things to rest I could focus my mental energy in the right direction.

So, here is the list of questions I have been pondering for a while:

- Cut shots, especially when near the rail on the tighter tables I play on. If position isn't a huge concern, do you hit them with a center rolling ball, with just a tweak of english, or with 1/2 tip or more of english? There was a recent thread on this in the main section, but my last question in that thread never got answered. If using some outside is a good thing on cut shots, then doesn't curve, squirt, etc come into play and potentially negate the advantage of eliminating cling? Or do better players just adjust so well and so automatically (as I feel I used to) that they don't worry about it? I hate when I line up a shot to cinch it and at the last minute I try to throw some helping english on it and miss because I didn't account for the effects. If I could decide on a method to cinch the ball, position notwithstanding, one less thing to think about

- My PSR. This is being discussed now here, so I won't say too much more. Just trying to solidify a routine, decide on a rhythm/pattern that works consistently and fits with my personal approach, instead of changing or tweaking from day to day

- Spin. I spent 15 years playing with a ton of spin. Was very comfortable with it, learned a lot by watching the Filipinos at the time and from playing 3 cushion. Obviously I was constantly having to account for various factors, but I "guessed" right most of the time, felt my way into the shot. I still see some of those routes naturally, but know that sticking to center ball and playing a tighter game is probably best. Usually pretty good with this, and I can do things to try to figure out what’s best for me in various situations, but there are still moments where indecision creeps in, or my approach wavers

- Equipment. Thread just started recently about this by someone, coincidentally. I played with a Schon shaft for years, lot of deflection. Switched to a Z2 a few years ago when I started playing again, liked it and played well with it. But I always wondered what something more "standard" would be like, so I bought a 314-2 to try. I feel like I'm in between shafts - I love the more solid hit of the 314-2, and I'm more used to the thickness now than the Z. But I hate the deflection - I can't adjust as well with it, especially when trying to be more systematic with BHE etc. It seems very sensitive to speed - I can make one adjustment if I hit it smooth, but just a little more speed or pop and I miss. Then a full BHE adjustment seems to be too much, and I'm left with complete feel, which I was trying to avoid. But with the Z, now I feel like I'm shooting with a toothpick, and because I shot with it my "old" way I tend to use more english. However, I can adjust for english much better with that shaft, the adjustments just make more sense to me and I guess I "feel" it more. So stick with the 314 and like the center ball feel and get better with adjustments, or go back to the Z and pay more attention to making sure I'm at center ball, or try another shaft?

- Stroke. Don't have video of my earlier playing days (before 2001), but I was playing well, had a lesson with Jerry Briesath, and after that I was playing lights out. He was awesome! But now, after years off, I feel like I had to reconstruct my game. I probably play just as well now, just differently, and with less confidence and consistency. There are days I feel really smooth, but I wonder if I have excessive elbow motion or tension on the follow through. I still have an occasional issue with steering the cue ball, comes from other sports I think and making last minute adjustments. I can work on this, take lessons, get video feedback, etc., but just another thing that enters my mind


There are other things I'm sure, but these are the types of things I think about. Same types of things that helped me analyze and learn the game, when there were 100 things to think about. Now it's narrowed down, and I feel like if I could work with someone, have some nice discussions on things, and settle one or more of these types of questions, I would just work on it and drill it in and then forget about it. I've gone through this with other sports, I guess for me it's just a process I must go through, no shortcutting it I'm afraid. Maybe I'm just a basket case… :)

Again, long post, but any advice or comments are appreciated.

Scott
 

The Renfro

Outsville.com
Silver Member
Long post (surprise)...


- Spin. I spent 15 years playing with a ton of spin. Was very comfortable with it, learned a lot by watching the Filipinos at the time and from playing 3 cushion. Obviously I was constantly having to account for various factors, but I "guessed" right most of the time, felt my way into the shot. I still see some of those routes naturally, but know that sticking to center ball and playing a tighter game is probably best. Usually pretty good with this, and I can do things to try to figure out what’s best for me in various situations, but there are still moments where indecision creeps in, or my approach wavers


Scott

I think I can likely tackle this one for you and leave the others for persons better suited for each..... Long long ago someone like Mosconi told someone don't use english when you first start learning the game.... They ran with it and low and behold decades later we should never use english unless we have to...... That's probably still great advice playing 14.1 but in rotation games being in the right angle and on the right side of the ball trumps everything else....

The pinoys are famous for using multiple rails and english to come into the position zones on angles where they maximize the windows they can land in and actually allow themselves to get closer to their shots than someone playing a flat ball style of play.... The main criticism I have for Shane at his current level which is world class is that in many instances he plays a flat ball and ends up with shots that are a foot or 2 longer than say Parica would have ended up with.....

Playing a flat cueball requires that you have a multitude of speeds you are both comfortable shooting and skilled at.... Your switch to trying to play this way will indeed cause issues of confidence drop and waivering... The pinoy style allows for the ball to be struck harder since you are going multiple rails and are able to let your stroke out.... Until you have babied balls for several solid months the choice to play flat in some situations is going to continue having your pool computer and subconscious going on tilt......

Learning to play flat is definitely worth the effort but do not ever think that you cannot keep several of the old spin shots in your arsenal..... There are some 3 and 4 rail position shots that I will never lay day in favor of a flat ball just because of speed sensitivity and control.... Of course as I progress in my ability to use multiple speeds playing a flat style those too may go by the wayside.....

Continue the journey but let yourself evolve into playing flat... don't just force it... If deep down you want to use spin use it until something inside changes that feeling for you.... Shooting the right shot for you will never come from your conscious decision making process it has to come from the side of you that just knows......

edit. just an fyi I am not an instructor I am just a student of the game and have been for 20+ years now.... I try to only stick my nose into places where I have studied extensively certain aspects...

Good shooting to you...
Chris
 
Last edited:

Cameron Smith

is kind of hungry...
Silver Member
It shouldn't be about playing just center ball or with more spin, in reality it's about playing the right shot. There are a lot of recurring positions in pool and snooker, some require the use of side and others need to be played with a center ball. I think creating a policy of playing primarily center or primarily with side is a recipe for inconsistency as it could potentially lead a player to overlook the proper shot. I know when I was a center ball player I had to go to great lengths to achieve the same position I can now manage quite easily with side.

As far as how to approach a cut shot that doesn't require position, I know Donnie Mills will say to always hit the ball with outside english. However as a snooker player, it's not a habit I personally want to get into. For me, center ball and smooth stroke should get it in there.

Equipment is more or less what you feel you play best with. I have a 314 shaft and I've never really been interested in switching. Maybe at some point, but right now I'm happy with it. But perhaps a Z shaft would be useful to make transitioning between pool and snooker smoother...not that I have issues as it is, or maybe I do and don't realize it lol.

The stroke is something we should be continually working on throughout our playing career. If Ronnie O'Sullivan and Stephen Hendry have made stroke changes since winning major titles, then so can I lol. Currently, I'm focusing on my grip. A proper grip goes a long way to facilitating a smooth cue action. Another helpful tip I picked up from a Max Eberle video was to practice shooting with my eyes closed. More specifically set up as you normally would, do your practice stroke and then before you're final stroke, close your eyes. It's had a huge impact on keeping my head still and reducing any unnecessary movement.
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I think I can likely tackle this one for you and leave the others for persons better suited for each..... Long long ago someone like Mosconi told someone don't use english when you first start learning the game.... They ran with it and low and behold decades later we should never use english unless we have to...... That's probably still great advice playing 14.1 but in rotation games being in the right angle and on the right side of the ball trumps everything else....

The pinoys are famous for using multiple rails and english to come into the position zones on angles where they maximize the windows they can land in and actually allow themselves to get closer to their shots than someone playing a flat ball style of play.... The main criticism I have for Shane at his current level which is world class is that in many instances he plays a flat ball and ends up with shots that are a foot or 2 longer than say Parica would have ended up with.....

Playing a flat cueball requires that you have a multitude of speeds you are both comfortable shooting and skilled at.... Your switch to trying to play this way will indeed cause issues of confidence drop and waivering... The pinoy style allows for the ball to be struck harder since you are going multiple rails and are able to let your stroke out.... Until you have babied balls for several solid months the choice to play flat in some situations is going to continue having your pool computer and subconscious going on tilt......

Learning to play flat is definitely worth the effort but do not ever think that you cannot keep several of the old spin shots in your arsenal..... There are some 3 and 4 rail position shots that I will never lay day in favor of a flat ball just because of speed sensitivity and control.... Of course as I progress in my ability to use multiple speeds playing a flat style those too may go by the wayside.....

Continue the journey but let yourself evolve into playing flat... don't just force it... If deep down you want to use spin use it until something inside changes that feeling for you.... Shooting the right shot for you will never come from your conscious decision making process it has to come from the side of you that just knows......

edit. just an fyi I am not an instructor I am just a student of the game and have been for 20+ years now.... I try to only stick my nose into places where I have studied extensively certain aspects...

Good shooting to you...
Chris


Chris, you managed to put into words something I didn't think could be put into words.

Instructor, or no instructor... that's some really great stuff.
 

scottjen26

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Thanks guys, some good advice in both posts. And thanks Fran too, looking forward to your comments.

Chris, you hit it exactly on the head. That tilt feeling is EXACTLY how I feel, and probably why I'm in that mode of questioning all of these other things at the same time! I guess I did sort of screw up my subconscious by taking a long break, then learning CTE, switching shafts, etc. Sort of like Tiger rebuilding his swing, I'm in limbo right now with flashes of brilliance, I can only hope I'm making the right decision to better my game in the long run, also the reason for these long posts, trying to be descriptive of how I feel in the hopes other have done the same thing or can give me great advice such as this.

I decided to try and incorporate more center ball type shots into my game, accepting slightly longer position sometimes in order to increase my shot percentage. A lot of this just evolved from learning CTE since I was so much more center ball focused. I think my old "pinoy" way of playing was great, I had a lot of shots and routes that others didn't, but it required more upkeep to keep that feel for constantly adjusting for the effects of the english I was using. And you are so right, the center method does require mastery of more speeds, and again those speeds can have an effect on CIT as well at certain angles that my internal computer hasn't been used to judging.

Again, thanks so much for the insight!
Scott
 

Ratta

Hearing the balls.....
Silver Member
Stop to overthink pal!
To learn new things is nothing bad- but stop to make yourself crazy. Also if (i really mean if :p) you think cte is perhaps not the real deal for you..then at least you can use still the way just to step into the shot- the alignment and stepping into the shot is still important. And this is for sure a good thing cte/pro 1 teaches (or should) you.

Just have fun- and keep shooting :)

lg
Ingo
 

One Pocket John

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Long post (surprise)...

Lately some topics have come up in the forums that I can completely relate too, things I've been thinking about for a while. So while I'm watching those threads for discussion and potential answers, I thought I'd put them together in one thread here in the hope that someone can shed light on 1 or more of the questions. As posted in the PSR thread, I realized lately that I keep tweaking things while I'm searching for answers, and I feel like if I could put some of these things to rest I could focus my mental energy in the right direction.

So, here is the list of questions I have been pondering for a while:

- Cut shots, especially when near the rail on the tighter tables I play on. If position isn't a huge concern, do you hit them with a center rolling ball, with just a tweak of english, or with 1/2 tip or more of english? There was a recent thread on this in the main section, but my last question in that thread never got answered. If using some outside is a good thing on cut shots, then doesn't curve, squirt, etc come into play and potentially negate the advantage of eliminating cling? Or do better players just adjust so well and so automatically (as I feel I used to) that they don't worry about it? I hate when I line up a shot to cinch it and at the last minute I try to throw some helping english on it and miss because I didn't account for the effects. If I could decide on a method to cinch the ball, position notwithstanding, one less thing to think about


I would like to say first starting off that I am not an instructor.
I dont advocate the use of center ball english unless its called for. The mass of the QB is about the size of a quarter. Moving outside of the mass will cause deflecton, thus the term 1 tip of english (spin). I use 1 tip of english or less to turn the ball into the pocket.
Lining up the shot and determining the force and spin needed is done in the standing position. When I bend over to shoot the tip of my cue falls on the QB at high left, low right, whatever. I do not move my cue to the desired english need while in the shooting position. Its done in the standing position.
- My PSR. This is being discussed now here, so I won't say too much more. Just trying to solidify a routine, decide on a rhythm/pattern that works consistently and fits with my personal approach, instead of changing or tweaking from day to day

When you are practicing, practice the things that you have to do on every shot. Lining up the shot, desiding where you want to send the cue ball. deciding what spin (if any) and force is needed to get it there. Once you have made your mind up, get down and shoot. Do not try to control the speed or english....shoot the shot and observe where the QB goes. Trust yourself.


- Spin. I spent 15 years playing with a ton of spin. Was very comfortable with it, learned a lot by watching the Filipinos at the time and from playing 3 cushion. Obviously I was constantly having to account for various factors, but I "guessed" right most of the time, felt my way into the shot. I still see some of those routes naturally, but know that sticking to center ball and playing a tighter game is probably best. Usually pretty good with this, and I can do things to try to figure out what’s best for me in various situations, but there are still moments where indecision creeps in, or my approach wavers

Stay within 1 tip of english off QB center. Either the left or right side of your cue shaft will always be in line with the vertical axis of the cue ball.-

Equipment. Thread just started recently about this by someone, coincidentally. I played with a Schon shaft for years, lot of deflection. Switched to a Z2 a few years ago when I started playing again, liked it and played well with it. But I always wondered what something more "standard" would be like, so I bought a 314-2 to try. I feel like I'm in between shafts - I love the more solid hit of the 314-2, and I'm more used to the thickness now than the Z. But I hate the deflection - I can't adjust as well with it, especially when trying to be more systematic with BHE etc. It seems very sensitive to speed - I can make one adjustment if I hit it smooth, but just a little more speed or pop and I miss. Then a full BHE adjustment seems to be too much, and I'm left with complete feel, which I was trying to avoid. But with the Z, now I feel like I'm shooting with a toothpick, and because I shot with it my "old" way I tend to use more english. However, I can adjust for english much better with that shaft, the adjustments just make more sense to me and I guess I "feel" it more. So stick with the 314 and like the center ball feel and get better with adjustments, or go back to the Z and pay more attention to making sure I'm at center ball, or try another shaft?

Man, ya gotta play with what feels right to you. I dont care if its a house cue, if it feels good, then your getting off pretty cheap.-

Stroke. Don't have video of my earlier playing days (before 2001), but I was playing well, had a lesson with Jerry Briesath, and after that I was playing lights out. He was awesome! But now, after years off, I feel like I had to reconstruct my game. I probably play just as well now, just differently, and with less confidence and consistency. There are days I feel really smooth, but I wonder if I have excessive elbow motion or tension on the follow through. I still have an occasional issue with steering the cue ball, comes from other sports I think and making last minute adjustments. I can work on this, take lessons, get video feedback, etc., but just another thing that enters my mind

That being said, then I'm sure you remember Jerry saying "lock the chin in on the shot line". This is a very true statement.

I have whats called a "check list" when, for some unknow reason things just dont seem right, I review my check list and check every single movement in making a shot until I find the one thing/s that is causing the problem. You need to make your own check list for the times that you may fall into a slump.

Lessons by a qualified instructor are never a bad idea.


There are other things I'm sure, but these are the types of things I think about. Same types of things that helped me analyze and learn the game, when there were 100 things to think about. Now it's narrowed down, and I feel like if I could work with someone, have some nice discussions on things, and settle one or more of these types of questions, I would just work on it and drill it in and then forget about it. I've gone through this with other sports, I guess for me it's just a process I must go through, no shortcutting it I'm afraid. Maybe I'm just a basket case… :)

Again, long post, but any advice or comments are appreciated.

Scott

Hope all of this may help you to a quick and painless recovery.

John
 
Last edited:

The Renfro

Outsville.com
Silver Member
Thanks Fran for the kind words.... Been a bit under the weather but couldn't resist posting as soon as I saw he was struggling with learning to play flat..... I honestly think that this is one of those changes that can alter the rest of your playing days..... I'd also hazard a guess that Scott was approaching shortstop level to make this realization... b and c players wouldn't get the subtleties I don't think.....
 
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