How important is the cue ball?

Skippy27

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
For me the most important thing is having a standard. We should always use the same cue ball for every tournament.

We might as well say all the tables have to be the same, the rails must be worn the same, the cloth needs to be the exact brand/type with the exact same wear. Tables the exact same height and not within a range. The humidity and temperature the same, Lumens of light the exact same and not within a range.

High level players should be able to adapt no matter what. If they can't, then they aren't so high level.
 

Bavafongoul

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It's More Than Just The Cue Ball (28.3495 grams = 1 Ounce)

Gosh, this is really not a question limited to a certain types or brands of cue balls.

It is the result of the pool ball rules authorizing precise variations in specifications.

Yes, that's right, none of the balls in a pool ball set have to be the same weight.

All 16 balls can, and often do, have varying weights and the rules allow for this.

Pool balls can vary up to as much as 1/2 ounce difference in weight and be legal.

New sets typically have closely matched weights; I heard that Raschig was the closest.

Personally, I've settled upon Brunswick Centennial pool balls by Saluc as my favorite.

I own several sets & the tolerances are really tight & are almost identical in every ball.

The measles cue ball is also almost identical in weight to the Centennials so that's a plus.

And any difference was just too slight to even be concerned about either at < 1/2 gram.

By the way, the Offical Rules also permit variation in the size of the pool balls as well (std is 2.25").



So if you think that using a smaller, or larger, cue ball that could be lighter, or heavier, than the object
balls you are play with in a local tournament doesn't affect your overall play, you are sadly mistaken.
If you are skeptical about what I wrote, check with Dr. Dave & by the way, also check the Rules too.


Matt B.
 
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KMRUNOUT

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The Red Circle ball is a "Specialty" ball, it is lighter and you can draw the piss out of it - that's why rotation players prefer it, more draw with less effort. Aramith actually calls it a specialty ball in their catalog.

I made up for deficiencies in my draw stroke by improving my draw stroke, not by changing to a different cue ball. I play primarily rotation and I think the red circle is junk. I don't want "more" or "less" of anything. I want the correct amount. A cue ball that is the same size, weight, and resin as the object balls will play correctly.

KMRUNOUT
 

ideologist

I don't never exaggerate
Silver Member
I made up for deficiencies in my draw stroke by improving my draw stroke, not by changing to a different cue ball. I play primarily rotation and I think the red circle is junk. I don't want "more" or "less" of anything. I want the correct amount. A cue ball that is the same size, weight, and resin as the object balls will play correctly.

KMRUNOUT

I agree, but it is still a fact, the Red Circle is lighter and players draw farther with less effort. I play with the Measle or the Aramith Super Pro Red Logo ball
 

Cornerman

Cue Author...Sometimes
Gold Member
Silver Member
We might as well say all the tables have to be the same, the rails must be worn the same, the cloth needs to be the exact brand/type with the exact same wear. Tables the exact same height and not within a range. The humidity and temperature the same, Lumens of light the exact same and not within a range.
This is exactly how and why Diamond tables came into existence. The professional game should have a standard, and Greg Sullivan made it hjappen.


High level players should be able to adapt no matter what. If they can't, then they aren't so high level.
Yeah, because Donny Mills apparently isn't a high level player, since he's the one demanding a standard.

This type of ridiculous post is why professionals don't come on this forum, and why posters like you are just annoying.
 

KMRUNOUT

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I agree, but it is still a fact, the Red Circle is lighter and players draw farther with less effort. I play with the Measle or the Aramith Super Pro Red Logo ball



Yes exactly. You're describing why it should t be used, and how it does not react properly. The tangent line, upon which all pool position is based, is not the same with that ball. The other two balls you mentioned are far superior choices for this reason.

KMRUNOUT


Sent from my iPhone using AzBilliards Forums
 

KMRUNOUT

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
This is exactly how and why Diamond tables came into existence. The professional game should have a standard, and Greg Sullivan made it hjappen.





Yeah, because Donny Mills apparently isn't a high level player, since he's the one demanding a standard.



This type of ridiculous post is why professionals don't come on this forum, and why posters like you are just annoying.



Hey Freddie I don't know that guy, don't know if you do, but who knows maybe he wants to give Donnie the last two. He obviously knows deep insights into how high level players think!

Also, don't forget about that other bar room hack Justin Bergman who advocated for a standard cueball as well.

KMRUNOUT


Sent from my iPhone using AzBilliards Forums
 

iusedtoberich

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
How can you possibly have a standard CB, when different brands of balls are being used in major events, and even different sets within the same brand?

The CB used should be the one that came with the set. I can't imagine a single argument against it.

-It was made by the same company
-It has the same finish as the other OB's
-The company's probably sort the high end sets by weight and size, so when you buy a set of balls, all 16 are most likely to be very closely matched. This is how they make high end ball bearings, and pool balls are basically the same process.

The only reason I can see not to use the CB that came with the set is if the CB is super worn. But that is most likely a local room problem, not a major tournament problem, where the sets are probably newer.
 

donny mills

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
We might as well say all the tables have to be the same, the rails must be worn the same, the cloth needs to be the exact brand/type with the exact same wear. Tables the exact same height and not within a range. The humidity and temperature the same, Lumens of light the exact same and not within a range.

High level players should be able to adapt no matter what. If they can't, then they aren't so high level.



False. If you played close to my speed you would understand. Justin Bergman feels the same way as I do about this, and considering he is the 2nd best American player maybe you'd believe him??

All I play with is a measle ball. It's been that way for the last 10 years. When I switch to a different ball I lose 10% of my game. If I practiced with a diff ball for months then I'd be fine.
 

donny mills

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Every single tournament I play in uses a measle ball. Every single gambling match I've been in or watched they were using the measle ball. It's been like this for many years now. Only tournament I go to that doesn't use the measle ball is the us open 8/10ball in Vegas which uses the cyclops ball. And yes me and many other pros are lost trying to control that goofy cue ball.
 

Straightpool_99

I see dead balls
Silver Member
Cyclop are ok balls, when they don't roll off.... The problem is they play completely differently than the standard measle ball/Aramith sets. I simply don't understand why MAJOR tournaments use equipment that only a minority of players are familiar with? The "good players adjust" argument is stupid! If a guy plays on a particular table every day, he's going to have a major advantage over people that come from somewhere else. It's the same with ball sets. Snooker has got these things under control, why can't pool? I mean, I know pool is hard up for cash, but maybe once in a while you can say "no" to a potential sponsor in order to preserve the integrity of the sport? Is that so much to ask?
 

Straightpool_99

I see dead balls
Silver Member
And I mean, why stop there? There should be a table standard. It doesn't necessarily have to be the same brand every time, but the pockets should be equal size/cut angle, with a standard shelf depth. And rails that bank properly, not 2 bleedin' diamonds short!! There could be simple test equipment used to test rails, to get proper speed and direction of the ball. It's not really THAT hard to do, but the WPA would actually have to do some work, so I guess it's impossible:rolleyes:.

I think pool equipment has actually progressed in quality over the years, it's just that everyone has their own ideal of how a table should play. IMO, the pros should have some sort of meeting and determine the ideal specs and then that should be enforced. The current equipment specs are laughably out of date and way to lenient. Cloth/cushion speed, pocket specs, even air humidity and lighting in the poolroom should be standardized. When it comes to ball specs, ONE manufacturer should be chosen every 2 years and used at all sanctioned events. If another manufacturer feels that they could make a better product for less, they could make an offer, and then have their balls tested by various machines, AND pros, to see if their product is acceptable.
 
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iusedtoberich

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Just a comment that I think its funny....

Up until 5 or 6 years ago, everyone on here seemed to hate the Measles ball. Any one of these threads regarding CB's would have their high share of measles haters. Then it was quiet for a couple of years. Then, when the Cyclop set came out, everyone loved the measles, and hated the Cyclop.

Just saying.
 

iusedtoberich

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Also, I believe there are now 2 measles balls by Aramith.

The one that comes with the Super Aramith Pro TV set, and the one that comes with the Duramith Tournament TV set.

The Duramith is the new top of the line set, and the balls are made of a different material and finish than the Super Pro set is.

Food for thought if you use the measles ball that came with one set on the other....
 

Straightpool_99

I see dead balls
Silver Member
THIS is how a proper sport standardizes equipment:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbHyD5C5NG8
UNCHANGED pocet dimensions since 1990...Heated table to control humidity/speed of cloth etc..Using templates to check the pockets is brilliant, and should be done in pool as well!

I currently play on GC's. When I go to play on Diamonds or Dynamic tables, it's like coming into a different world. Not to speak of Olhausen and various Chinese tables...The difference is not subtle, and with Diamonds it's downright ridiculous! Imagine if we had pocket templates, like snooker...One size, or maybe there could be 2. One "pro" and one "amateur". That way, you'd know exactly what to expect on every table. Instead you have not only different table manufacturers, but tables that have been incorrectly set up, where one pocket plays different from the others etc..It's a damned joke. No wonder no one can take pool seriously as a sport! The humidity is a major factor as well, obviously, then there is rail speed, lighting, different cloths etc...One standard each year, or every other! That should be the norm.
 
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ctyhntr

RIP Kelly
Silver Member
So, basically all Cyclop has to do is sweat it out until a competitor comes out with a new product (target), for everyone to complain about while forgetting the core issue (It's the Indian not the Arrow that makes the shot :).

Just a comment that I think its funny....

Up until 5 or 6 years ago, everyone on here seemed to hate the Measles ball. Any one of these threads regarding CB's would have their high share of measles haters. Then it was quiet for a couple of years. Then, when the Cyclop set came out, everyone loved the measles, and hated the Cyclop.

Just saying.
 
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Bavafongoul

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Wouldn't Ya Know It.......Rules 4 Everything.

There are standards for tables and rails, etc. but just like pool balls, some variation is allowable. Below are the WPA Rules followed by BCA Rules.
Please note that BCA Rules I posted sanction diffreences of up to 1/2 ounce in pool ball weights and WPA also has the same identical rule.




TABLE BED HEIGHT: Shall be between 29 ¼ inches [74.295 cm] and 31 inches [78.74 cm]. Shall not have any sharp edges or materials that might cause injuries or damage clothes. Construction should be adequate enough so that the table will remain stable and level under all conditions of play.


SLATES: The thickness must be at least 1 inch [2.54 cm], and the playing surface must be capable, either by its own strength or a combination of its strength and that of the table base frame, of maintaining an overall flatness within + .020 inches [.508 mm] lengthwise and + .010 inches [.254 mm] across the width. Further this surface should have an additional deflection not to exceed .030 inches [.762 mm] when loaded with a concentrated static force of 200 pounds [90.7 kg] at its center. All slate joints must be in the same plane within .005 inch [.127 mm] after leveling and shimming. Tournament tables must have a set of slates consisting of three pieces of equal size with wooden frame of at least ¾ inch [1.905 cm] thick lumber attached underneath the slate. The slate sections must be secured to the base frame with countersunk screws or bolts.


PLAYING SURFACE:
The playing surface (area) must be rectangular, and symmetrical when the pocket configurations are included:
9 foot – 100 (+ 1/8) x 50 (+ 1/8) inches (except cushions)/ [2.54 m (+3.175 mm) x 1.27 m (+ 3.175 mm)]
8 foot – 92 (+ 1/8) x 46 (+ 1/8) inches (except cushions)/ [2.3368 m (+3.175 mm) x 1.1684 m (+ 3.175 mm)]


RAIL AND CUSHION: The rail width must be between 4 [10.16 cm] and 7 ½ inches [19.05 cm] including the rubber cushions. 18 sights (or 17 and a name plate) shall be attached flush on the rail cap with:

12 ½ inches [31.75 cm] from sight to sight on a 9-foot regulation table
11 ½ inches [29.20 cm] from sight to sight on a 8-foot regulation table.

The center of each sight should be located 3 11/16 (+ ) inches [93.6625 mm (+ 3.175 mm)] from the nose of the cushion. The sights may be round (between 7/16 [11.11 mm] and ½ inch [12.7 mm] in diameter) or diamond-shaped (between 1 x 7/16 [25.4 x 11.11 mm] and 1 ¼ x 5/8 inch [31.75 x 15.875 mm]). Any nameplates and score counters should be flush level with rail top. All rail bolts should be thus located that when properly torqued render a quiet and optimum rebound from any point of the cushion nose of the table.



HEIGHT OF THE CUSHION:
Rubber cushions should be triangular in shape with the width of the cloth-covered cushion being between 1 7/8 [4.76 cm] and 2 inches [5.40 cm] measured from the outer edge of the featherstrip to the nose of the cushion. Rail height (nose-line to table-bed) should be 63 ½% (+1 %) or between 62 ½% and 64 ½ % of the diameter of the ball.


CUSHION RUBBER:
Table cushions should influence the speed of the table such that with placement of a ball on the head spot, shooting through the foot spot, using center ball english, with a level cue and firm stroke, the ball must travel a minimum of 4 to 4 ½ lengths of the table without jumping.



POCKET OPENINGS AND MEASUREMENTS: Only rubber facings of minimum 1/16 [1.5875 mm] to maximum ¼ inch [6.35 mm] thick may be used at pocket jaws. The preferred maximum thickness for facings is 1/8 inch [3.175 mm]. The facings on both sides of the pockets must be of the same thickness. Facings must be of hard re-enforced rubber glued with strong bond to the cushion and the rail, and adequately fastened to the wood rail liner to prevent shifting. The rubber of the facings should be somewhat harder than that of the cushions.

The pocket openings for pool tables are measured between opposing cushion noses where the direction changes into the pocket (from pointed lip to pointed lip). This is called mouth.

Corner Pocket Mouth: between 4.5 [11.43 cm] and 4.625 inches [11.75 cm]
Side Pocket Mouth: between 5 [12.7 cm] and 5.125 inches [13.0175 cm]
*The mouth of the side pocket is traditionally ½ inch [1.27 cm] wider than
the mouth of the corner pocket.

Vertical Pocket Angle (Back Draft): 12 degrees minimum to15 degrees maximum.

Horizontal Pocket Cut Angle: The angle must be the same on both sides of a pocket entrance. The cut angles of the rubber cushion and its wood backing (rail liner) for both sides of the corner pocket entrance must be 142 degrees (+1). The cut angles of the rubber cushion and its wood backing (rail liner) for both sides of the side pocket entrance must be 104 degrees (+1).

Shelf: The shelf is measured from the center of the imaginary line that goes from one side of the mouth to the other – where the nose of the cushion changes direction – to the vertical cut of the slate pocket cut. Shelf includes bevel.

Corner Pocket Shelf: between 1 [2.54 cm] and 2 ¼ inches [5.715 cm]
Side Pocket Shelf: between 0 and .375 inches [.9525 cm]


POCKET LINERS: The pocket liners and boots should be of long wearing plastic, rubber or leather. The material the liners and boots are made of should not permanently mark (stain) the balls or cues. The upper part of the inner wall must be so fashioned that whenever a ball hits the pocket liner wall below the rim at the top of the rail, the ball is directed downwards.


BALL RETURN AND DROP POCKETS: Both drop pockets and automatic ball returns can be used, but must be as noiseless as possible. Drop pockets must have a basket capacity of at least 6 balls. Automatic ball returns must be properly installed so that pocketed balls are not trampolined back to the table or off the table.

CLOTH: The cloth must be non-directional, nap-free billiard fabric which will not pill or fluff, composed of composed of between 80% and 85% combed worsted wool, and between 15% to 20% nylon. 100% combed worsted wool fabric is preferred. No backed cloth will be allowed.


FASTENING OF THE CLOTH (GUIDELINES): Before cloth-covering the slate, a strip of canvas (or table-cloth) should be glued to the vertical pocket cuts of the slates and their underlying wooden slate liner. The table-bed cloth must be stretched for “proper tension” and mechanically attached to the underlying wooden slate liner with fully driven fasteners (staples or tacks) spaced a maximum of 1 inch on center approximately, with at least inch [.9525 cm] penetration into the wooden slate liner. Guidelines for proper tension are as follow:

1. Length of the cloth should be manually stretched as tight as possible,
and then relieved ½ inch [1.27 cm] before attachment, and
2. Width of the cloth should be manually stretched as tight as possible,
and then relieved ¼ inch [.635 cm] before attachment.

When covering the cushions, the cloth must be lengthwise evenly and consistently well-stretched while inserting the featherstrip as well as thereafter. While the cloth is in a stretched condition lengthwise, the cloth must then be stretched in the width up to the moment when indentation of the nose of the rubber cushion is about to start and attached underneath the wooden rail with fully driven fasteners (staples or tacks) spaced a maximum of 3/4 inch [1.905 cm] on center approximately, with at least 3/8 inch [.9525 cm] penetration into the wood. At the side pocket openings, the rails are to be covered with a minimum overlapping of fabric over the facings. When doing overlappings, great care must be taken so that hidden folds, if any, do not cause balls to jump off the table during play. No folds are allowed in the cloth over the facings of the corner pockets.





BCA Specifications (Billiards Congress of America)

Table Sizes:
Pocket billiard Tables..............................................4 by 8 and 4 1/2 by 9
Carom Billiard Tables..............................................4 1/2 by 9 and 5 by 10
American Snooker Tables........................................4 1/2 by 9 and 5 by 10

Playing Area: Measured from the cloth covered nose of cushion rubber to the opposite cushion rubber, both width and length:
4 by 8 table...................................playing area 44" width by 88" length
4 by 8 oversize table........................playing area of 46" width by 92" length
4 1/2 by 9 table.............................playing area of 50" width by 100" length
5 by 10 table.................................playing area of 56" width by 112" length
The BCA will sanction Tournament Play on Home and Coin-operated tables produced in sizes other than those recognized above, if the playing area width is one half the length, measured cushion to opposite cushion.

Table Bed height: The table bed playing surface, when measured from the bottom of the table leg, will be 29 1/4 minimum to 30 1/4 maximum.

Pocket Openings and Measurements:
Pocket billiard tables: pocket openings are measured at two points - the first being measured between opposing cushion noses where the direction changes into the pocket (tip to tip). This is called the mouth. The second point of measurement is at the narrowest point at the back of the facing. This is called the throat.

Corner Pocket:
Mouth...................................................4 7/8" minimum to 5 1/8" maximum
Throat...................................................4" minimum to 4 1/4" maximum

Side Pocket:
Mouth..................................................5 3/8" minimum to 5 5/8" maximum
Throat..................................................4 3/8" minimum to 4 7/8" maximum

Vertical Pocket Angle 12 +,or - 1 degree

Shelf: The shelf is measured from the center of the imaginary line that goes from one side of the mouth to the other where the nose of the cushion changes direction to the center of the vertical cut of the slate pocket radius.

Corner Pocket........................................1 5/8" minimum to 1 7/8" maximum
Side Pocket............................................0" minimum to 3/8" maximum
Drop Point Slate Radius: The pocket radius measured from the vertical cut of the slate to the playing surface.

Drop Point Slate Radius...................1/8" r. Minimum to 1/4" r. Maximum
Playing Bed: The playing surface must be capable, either by its own strength or a combination of its strength and that of the table baseframe, of maintaining an overall flatness within a tolerance of .020" lengthwise and .010" across the width. Further, this surface should have an additional deflection not to exceed .030" when loaded with a concentrated static force of 200 pounds at its center. If more than one slab is employed, the slab joints must be in the same plane within .005" after leveling and shimming. The bed must be covered with a fabric, the major portion of which is made of wool, with proper tension to avoid unwanted ball roll-off. Commercial tables must have a 1" - 3 piece set of slate with a wooden frame minimum 3/4" attached to slate. All playing surfaces must be secured to base frame with screws or bolts.
Cushion: Rubber cushions should be triangular in shape and molded with the conventional K-66 profile with a base of 1 3/16" and a nose height of 1", with control fabric molded to the top and base area of the cushion. On carom billiard tables, the triangular k-55 profile cushion is to be maintained, with the control fabric on the underside of the cushion to effect a slower rebound action. On snooker tables, the triangular k66 profile or L-shaped snooker cushion is to be used. The balance of the rail section to which the rubber cushion is glued should be of hardwood construction and attached to the slate bed with a minimum of three (3) heavy duty, threaded rail bolts per rail.
Billiard Balls: Molded and finished in a perfect sphere, with both dynamic and static balance, in the following weights and diameters and used in the following games:

Pocket Billiard Balls:
Weight: 5 1/2 to 6 oz. / *Diameter: 2 1/4"
 
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Straightpool_99

I see dead balls
Silver Member
I'm aware of these specs, and they are laughable! These specs are a joke, both sets are!

Shelf depth of 1-2.25 inches?! Don't tell me that those play even remotely the same! How about the vertical angle, 12-15 degrees?! And how about specifying 142,143 or whatever degrees PERIOD for the horizontal. Maybe +/-0.5 degrees? With a proper template this could be done!

The speed requirement has a minimum, but no maximum or even recommended speed and no actual "standard" measurement. "Firm stroke", WTF is that?! Is it so hard to make a ramp out of cardboard or plastic to roll the cueball on and then use a ruler to measure the length of cushion bounce?

Cloth specs are close to non-existant. Percentage of wool should be specified. There should be a speed requirement at standard room temperature and humidity etc, etc..

Brunswick GC's are not within BCA specs (K55 rubber) and neither is Diamond pro cut tables (pocket opening), it looks like to me, and I haven't actually measured the slate depth, but I suspect that may be off, along with the horizontal angle...The two standard tables of yesteryear and today are actually possibly outside the specs, even as tolerant as they are. Most tournaments are played on even tighter tables anyway, so that doesn't even matter! What good are specs when they are being ignored by the entire industry, because of non-enforcement!?

And then, the ball specs.....5 1/2- 6 ounces!?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That's a whopping 14 grams of difference. It's huge!! Keep in mind that top ball sets have +/- 1 gram tolerance throughout the set...

These specs are set up so that the manufacturers don't have to try too hard to meet them. They are not set up to ensure the integrity or even enjoyment of the game. This game needs a new governing body, ASAP.
 
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WildWing

Super Gun Mod
Silver Member
For what it's worth,

Weights of Red Circle and Measle balls. Both are genuine, Red Circle from Neilson's Billiards Ebay, Measle ball from an Aramith set. Both practically new, very little play on either.

Both weigh 168 grams. Perhaps others get different results. But, perhaps some should rethink assumptions.

All the best,
WW
 

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The-Professor

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
For what it's worth,

Weights of Red Circle and Measle balls. Both are genuine, Red Circle from Neilson's Billiards Ebay, Measle ball from an Aramith set. Both practically new, very little play on either.

Both weigh 168 grams. Perhaps others get different results. But, perhaps some should rethink assumptions.

All the best,
WW

Thats very interesting!
 
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