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Chucklez65
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05-31-2011, 12:49 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by cigardave View Post
Relative to using your cue to aim a shot, the rules appear to allow this even if the cue is NOT held.

Read here... from the same BCAPL General Rules.

1.3 Use of Equipment
The BCAPL reserves the right to prohibit any equipment it deems untested or
inappropriate, or that has not been evaluated by the BCAPL National Office.
1. You are responsible for all equipment and accessory items you bring to the table (AR
p. 68). You may not use equipment or accessory items in a manner other than their
intended use. Specifically:
a. You may use your cue, held in your hand or not, to help align a shot (AR
p. 68);
20
Thanks for this. I was completely unaware that this rule was listed this way.
Sorry for the incorrect information.


Chuck
  
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Zivan1967
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05-31-2011, 12:51 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Total_Chaos13 View Post
Placing the chalk on the rail is nothing more than a reference point. You still have to have the knowledge to properly determine the ball path, speed, english and other factors. Then you must have the skill set to pull pull it off regardless if its what many consider a "simple" one rail kick or some fabulous 6 rail kick with upside-down inside-out english with a twist ( i know that's not really possible just exaggerating my point.) If you don't have the knowledge or the skill set to pull off the shot then where you place a piece of chalk is irrelevant. Something simple like placing the chalk on the rail isn't like using mirrors or lasers to determine the shot, its just a reference point where to hit to the rail. After i determine who, what, when, where, how to hit the shot the last thing i need is to get down on the ball look at the cue, the rail the cue the rail then realize after all that i have lost my point of reference.

Lots of people are taught to use reference points either its someone on the table like a spot on the cloth or stain or something further our in the room. The points on the rails are nothing more that stationary reference points at pre-determined positions.
What's the difference from using chalk as a reference point and drawing a line from the cue ball to where you want to hit the object ball with chalk? At some point you have to draw the line and either you allow everything or nothing at all.

Using anything other than your cue should be a foul. It's the same thing when people grab a ball that's already down to see if they have room to make the shot if it's a tight fit. I think it shouldn't be allowed unless you have ball in hand and are allowed to touch a ball in the first place.
  
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05-31-2011, 02:43 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zivan1967 View Post
It's the same thing when people grab a ball that's already down to see if they have room to make the shot if it's a tight fit. I think it shouldn't be allowed unless you have ball in hand and are allowed to touch a ball in the first place.
FOUL... not allowed at all.

1.3 Use of Equipment
The BCAPL reserves the right to prohibit any equipment it deems untested or
inappropriate, or that has not been evaluated by the BCAPL National Office.
1. You are responsible for all equipment and accessory items you bring to the table (AR
p. 68). You may not use equipment or accessory items in a manner other than their
intended use. Specifically:

g. you may not use any ball, cue, rack, or any other equipment or any part of
your body as a width-measuring device to determine if the cue ball or an
object ball would fit through a gap or to judge what ball the cue ball would
contact first
(AR p. 68).
  
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05-31-2011, 04:40 PM

As far as i'm concerned, you can put the chalk anywhere you like, as it's not altering or affecting the playing surface itself at all. Licking your finger and putting a mark on the table by pressing you wet finger IS what i would consider "marking the table." In my opinion, after I chalk I can put the chalk down anywhere I want. Same could be said for placing your hand on the table in preparation to play shape to where your hand is - it's not affecting or changing the playing surface, so there isn't anything wrong about it to me.
  
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05-31-2011, 05:13 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by macneilb View Post
As far as i'm concerned, you can put the chalk anywhere you like, as it's not altering or affecting the playing surface itself at all. Licking your finger and putting a mark on the table by pressing you wet finger IS what i would consider "marking the table." In my opinion, after I chalk I can put the chalk down anywhere I want. Same could be said for placing your hand on the table in preparation to play shape to where your hand is - it's not affecting or changing the playing surface, so there isn't anything wrong about it to me.
I respect that as your opinion, but the rules say otherwise. If we were all allowed to use our opinons to interpret the rules, then everyone's rules would be different.

My opinion is that you cannot intentionally place any object or mark the table in any way to help you align the shot and I think that complies with the rules.
  
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05-31-2011, 06:57 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by cigardave View Post
FOUL... not allowed at all.

1.3 Use of Equipment
The BCAPL reserves the right to prohibit any equipment it deems untested or
inappropriate, or that has not been evaluated by the BCAPL National Office.
1. You are responsible for all equipment and accessory items you bring to the table (AR
p. 68). You may not use equipment or accessory items in a manner other than their
intended use. Specifically:

g. you may not use any ball, cue, rack, or any other equipment or any part of
your body as a width-measuring device to determine if the cue ball or an
object ball would fit through a gap or to judge what ball the cue ball would
contact first
(AR p. 68).
What is the point to this rule? Seems like verifying whether a hit will be good or bad would be the way to go.
  
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05-31-2011, 07:34 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by insanepoolgod View Post
What is the point to this rule? Seems like verifying whether a hit will be good or bad would be the way to go.
the point is that you must use your eyes and your brain to gauge a shot, not any other items like out of play balls, rulers, lasers, chalk, etc. you can use your cue, but nothing else. "judgement, not measurement"
  
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05-31-2011, 07:38 PM

[QUOTE=tatcat2000;3037633]While that is still a foul under WSR 6.12, in BCAPL play it is legal to remove your hand from the cue. BCAPL Rule 1-3-1-a is applicable.

On a side note, I know of at least one WSR contributor and expert that has lobbied to have the "hand on the stick" restriction removed from WSR. Maybe they will be successful in the future.

Edit - sorry Dave - you type faster than I do...


Buddy Eick
BCAPL National Head Referee
BCAPL Director of Referee Training


Buddy -

thanks. What was the logic for BCAPL deviating from the WSR rules to allow use of the cue with no hand on the cue? Seems like introducing another rules discrepancy with no strong driving force for the deviation.
  
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05-31-2011, 11:59 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by GADawg View Post
What was the logic for BCAPL deviating from the WSR rules to allow use of the cue with no hand on the cue? Seems like introducing another rules discrepancy with no strong driving force for the deviation.
During the discussion of the rule, three things (among others) were noted:

1. The usual interpretation of the requirement of WSR 6.12 to have a hand "on" the cue stick is that no more than a fingertip need be in contact with the stick to meet the requirement of the rule.

2. With a stick lying on the table to analyze an angle, it was demonstrated that there is very little difference, and really no significant difference, between the body's position with a [WSR required] finger on the cue or without a finger on the cue. In either case, the head can easily be lowered to table level, if desired, or moved to any other elevation, or moved away to arm's length, or a full arm's length to either side (taking in the full range of many banks/kicks, though not all.) While it is true that some advantage might be gained by stepping back to observe a wider field of view, or by stepping away to view the stick from another perspective, the decision was made by the BCAPL that it was not significant enough to warrant keeping a hand on the stick.

3. The normal practice under WSR is to penalize only when intent is present. Removal of the hand-on-stick requirement ended the long-running practice of having to differentiate between, and settle arguments about, the hand being off the stick for a measurement vs. the stick laid on the table for other purposes such as tying a shoe or other non-measurement activity.

While all viewpoints were considered carefully, the above factors combined tipped the decision. In practice, during the four years the rule has been in effect for BCAPL play, including use at several non-BCAPL events, there has been no noted push-back from players or administrators.

Buddy Eick
BCAPL National Head Referee
BCAPL Director of Referee Training
Technical Editor, BCAPL Rule Book
bcapl_referee@cox.net

Find the Official Rules of the BCA Pool League here:

http://www.playbca.com/Downloads/Rul...2/Default.aspx

* The contents of this post refer to BCA Pool League (BCAPL) Rules only. The BCAPL National Office has authorized me to act in an official capacity regarding questions about BCAPL Rules matters in public forums.
* Neither I nor any BCAPL referee make any policy decisions regarding BCAPL Rules. Any and all decisions, interpretations, or Applied Rulings are made by the BCAPL National Office and are solely their responsibility. BCAPL referees are enforcers of rules, not legislators. BCAPL Rules 9.5.3 and 9.5.4 and the BCAPL Rules "Statement of Principles" apply.
* No reference to, inference concerning, or comment on any other set of rules (WPA, APA, VNEA, TAP, or any other set of rules, public or private) is intended or should be derived from this post unless specifically stated.
* For General Rules, 8-Ball, 9-Ball, 10-Ball, and 14.1 Continuous: there is no such thing as "BCA Rules" other than in the sense that the Billiard Congress of America (BCA) publishes various rules, including the World Pool-Billiard Association's "World Standardized Rules" for those games. The BCA has no rules committee. The BCA does not edit, nor is responsible for the content of, the World Standardized Rules. The Official Rules of the BCAPL is a separate and independent set of rules and, to avoid confusion, should not be referred to as "BCA Rules".
* Since 2004, there is no such thing as a "BCA Referee". The BCA no longer has any program to train, certify or sanction billiards referees or officials. The BCAPL maintains what we consider to be the most structured, complete and intensive referee training program available.
* The BCAPL has no association with the Billiard Congress of America other than in their capacity as a member of the BCA. The letters "BCA" in BCAPL do not stand for "Billiard Congress of America, nor for anything at all.
* The BCAPL has not addressed every imaginable rules issue, nor will it ever likely be able to, as evidenced by the seemingly endless situations that people dream up or that (more frequently) actually happen. If I do not have the answer to a question I will tell you so, then I will get a ruling from the BCAPL National Office and get back to you as soon as I can. If deemed necessary, the BCAPL will then add the ruling to the "Applied Rulings" section of The Official Rules of the BCA Pool League.
* All BCAPL members are, as always, encouraged to e-mail Bill Stock at the BCAPL National Office, bill@playcsi.com, with any comments, concerns or suggestions about the BCAPL rules.

Last edited by tatcat2000; 06-01-2011 at 12:03 AM.
  
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