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Bigkahuna
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Judging good or bad hit - 08-26-2008, 07:53 AM

You are watching for a good or bad hit. The object ball and interfering ball are close together. The player shoots hard into the balls and you are asked if this is good or bad. I have seen many people claim they can see which ball is hit but I really doubt this if it is shot hard and the hit is close. Most of the time I will stand at a point where I can judge the direction of the interfering ball should that ball be hit first. So, I am saying if that ball goes on this path or or further it would be a bad hit. Am I correct on this? What method would you use?

The next one here is when a player claims a "split hit" hitting both balls at the same time. If this were really the case, (without high speed photography who knows), then wouldn't this be a bad hit as most rules in most leagues say you must hit the "object ball" or "your group of balls balls" first?


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hit - 08-26-2008, 08:01 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigkahuna
You are watching for a good or bad hit. The object ball and interfering ball are close together. The player shoots hard into the balls and you are asked if this is good or bad. I have seen many people claim they can see which ball is hit but I really doubt this if it is shot hard and the hit is close. Most of the time I will stand at a point where I can judge the direction of the interfering ball should that ball be hit first. So, I am saying if that ball goes on this path or or further it would be a bad hit. Am I correct on this? What method would you use?

The next one here is when a player claims a "split hit" hitting both balls at the same time. If this were really the case, (without high speed photography who knows), then wouldn't this be a bad hit as most rules in most leagues say you must hit the "object ball" or "your group of balls balls" first?
If you have ever been around pool , you almost know by looking at shot before the actual shot if it will be good of not. as a retired TD it was easy for me ,because i have been around the game for so long.and in texas express rules the [split hit] as you call it always goes to the shooter. calling hit was the easy part!!!


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08-26-2008, 08:56 AM

One simple, yet not foolproof, indicator is which ball (object or interfering) left faster after contact. Most of the time the faster ball was first contacted, however sometimes it's the ball that had a more full contact.


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08-26-2008, 09:03 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigkahuna
Most of the time I will stand at a point where I can judge the direction of the interfering ball should that ball be hit first. So, I am saying if that ball goes on this path or or further it would be a bad hit.
it has been my experience that the direction of the cueball will tell you whether or not it is a good or bad hit, not the speed or direction of the interfering ball, althought this will work sometimes. if the interfering ball is hit first, no matter how hard, the cue ball will deflect off the object ball in a certain direction. If a good hit and the interfering ball is hit after contact, the direction of the cueball will be different.

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08-26-2008, 09:10 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by 12squared
it has been my experience that the direction of the cueball will tell you whether or not it is a good or bad hit, not the speed or direction of the interfering ball, althought this will work sometimes. if the interfering ball is hit first, no matter how hard, the cue ball will deflect off the object ball in a certain direction. If a good hit and the interfering ball is hit after contact, the direction of the cueball will be different.

Dave
That's the right answer. I was taught in referee's class to determine where the cue ball would go on a good hit and watch for that. If it doesn't, it's a bad hit.

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Watching cue ball travel?
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Watching cue ball travel? - 08-26-2008, 10:15 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by 12squared
it has been my experience that the direction of the cueball will tell you whether or not it is a good or bad hit, not the speed or direction of the interfering ball, althought this will work sometimes. if the interfering ball is hit first, no matter how hard, the cue ball will deflect off the object ball in a certain direction. If a good hit and the interfering ball is hit after contact, the direction of the cueball will be different.

Dave
This seems less certain to me. Say the hit on the interfering ball would be very thin and the object ball would be a pretty full hit with the two balls very close together. The thin hit on the interfering ball would not deflect the cue ball very much and there wouldn't be much travel before it hit the object ball to make a judgement.


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Bob Jewett
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08-26-2008, 11:21 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigkahuna
You are watching for a good or bad hit. The object ball and interfering ball are close together. The player shoots hard into the balls and you are asked if this is good or bad. I have seen many people claim they can see which ball is hit but I really doubt this if it is shot hard and the hit is close. Most of the time I will stand at a point where I can judge the direction of the interfering ball should that ball be hit first. So, I am saying if that ball goes on this path or or further it would be a bad hit. Am I correct on this? What method would you use?

The next one here is when a player claims a "split hit" hitting both balls at the same time. If this were really the case, (without high speed photography who knows), then wouldn't this be a bad hit as most rules in most leagues say you must hit the "object ball" or "your group of balls balls" first?
I was recently at Dr. Dave's place and we videotaped explanations of various situations involving close split hits. This was with both regular speed and high-speed video.

As the other Dave (144) mentioned, you can nearly always work out what must have happened with the directions of the balls and especially the direction of the cue ball. Unfortunately, this process is not easy for a lot of people and stumps those who are not comfortable with the 90-degree tangent line rule.

It is possible to shoot right between a frozen pair of object balls and draw the cue ball straight back. This is not easy, but I've done it in under 20 tries on one occasion. In that case, the call goes to the shooter. I think this is fairly clear in the rules, which are available at www.wpa-pool.com. You have to look at the "Regulations" which say in part:
26. Split Hits
If the cue ball strikes a legal object ball and a non-legal object ball at approximately the same instant, and it cannot be determined which ball was hit first, it will be assumed that the legal target was struck first.


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08-26-2008, 11:40 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigkahuna
This seems less certain to me. Say the hit on the interfering ball would be very thin and the object ball would be a pretty full hit with the two balls very close together. The thin hit on the interfering ball would not deflect the cue ball very much and there wouldn't be much travel before it hit the object ball to make a judgement.
In general, it's not ambiguous, but there are special cases where it is very difficult to tell which was struck first. On the videos I mentioned above, there is one shot where the cue ball barely passes a first object ball and then about half a ball's distance later hits the target. The cue ball then caroms sideways into the first ball driving it partly back toward you. On a bad hit, the first ball goes out along the cut line which is less than 90 degrees from the incoming path of the cue ball.

We managed to capture a shot on the high speed video (maybe in a few more than 20 takes) in which the cue ball barely wiggles the first ball and then hits the second and then comes back into the first ball, producing ball paths that are about the same as for a good hit. Without a high-speed camera, the call would go in favor of the shooter.

There are also a few situations in which the cue ball strikes the right ball first, but because the balls are compressible it will look like a bad hit. Imagine an 8-ball rack with the cue ball taking the place of a corner ball. Move the cue ball straight towards the side cushion (along the line of the back row of balls) and then shoot it back towards where it was. If you do this perfectly, it will strike two balls simultaneously but it will look like it hit the fourth-row ball first. It might not be fair, but the call for this situation would almost certainly go against the shooter.


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08-26-2008, 11:55 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by stick8
If you have ever been around pool , you almost know by looking at shot before the actual shot if it will be good of not. as a retired TD it was easy for me ,because i have been around the game for so long.and in texas express rules the [split hit] as you call it always goes to the shooter. calling hit was the easy part!!!
I dont mean to call anyone out but i have seen this done to me and to others. I asked a well respected player to watch a hit for me in a tourney and he looked at the shot for almost a full minute before he said he was ready to watch the hit. He then said he was ready and I shot and he said it was a foul. It might very well have been a foul and I am not the one to judge as I did ask him to watch it, but he said that it was a foul because it couldnt be done. Now I will say that the shot that I chose to shoot did indeed wind up being a foul, but the fact remains that it had no chance of being called legal because the person watching it made up his mind before it ever took place.

I respectfully submit that it is not the ref's job to predetermine if a ball CAN be hit and it is not the ref's job to make the determination BEFORE the shot ever gets attempted. Just because YOU dont think it can be done, does not necessarily mean that the shooter cannot perform it.

We are talking about things that very seldom come up, but making a call before the shot ever is struck is swaying your opinion before the shot and it makes it hard to remain objective on the actual shot as you need to be convinced of it in order to make the call.


Just my .02


Chuck

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08-26-2008, 12:16 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chucklez65
... I respectfully submit that it is not the ref's job to predetermine if a ball CAN be hit and it is not the ref's job to make the determination BEFORE the shot ever gets attempted. Just because YOU dont think it can be done, does not necessarily mean that the shooter cannot perform it. ...
That's true, but I think it is useful for the referee to prepare himself with observations like, "if the cue ball hits this ball first, the balls will go this way, but if the cue ball hits the other ball first, the balls will go like that, all things going as usual." It is then possible for the player to play a shot the ref didn't expect at all, and then the ref will have to do the best he can in the unfamiliar situation.

One shot many refs have trouble with is when the cue ball is a quarter-inch from the object ball and the player plays straight at the object ball. It is possible using any of several techniques to do this without a double hit. It is even possible to get the cue ball to follow forward with a legal hit in this situation. Many refs have never seen such a shot done legally, and are likely to get the call wrong due to lack of knowledge.


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08-26-2008, 01:27 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Jewett
I was recently at Dr. Dave's place and we videotaped explanations of various situations involving close split hits. This was with both regular speed and high-speed video.
Are those online yet? I couldn't find a link.
  
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08-26-2008, 01:33 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Jewett
That's true, but I think it is useful for the referee to prepare himself with observations like, "if the cue ball hits this ball first, the balls will go this way, but if the cue ball hits the other ball first, the balls will go like that, all things going as usual." It is then possible for the player to play a shot the ref didn't expect at all, and then the ref will have to do the best he can in the unfamiliar situation.



I agree completely with preparing yourself for which way the cueball would be going..absolutely. or how the balls would be travelling. The case that i was referring to is very specific. so /agree all the way.

One shot many refs have trouble with is when the cue ball is a quarter-inch from the object ball and the player plays straight at the object ball. It is possible using any of several techniques to do this without a double hit. It is even possible to get the cue ball to follow forward with a legal hit in this situation. Many refs have never seen such a shot done legally, and are likely to get the call wrong due to lack of knowledge.


And yes, I have had to make this call and have made the call both ways while trying to explain the difference to any spectators that are watching after the fact. Its very hard to explain to someone because the shot looks so subjective.....when in actuallity it is not.
Thanks Mr. Jewett


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08-26-2008, 01:51 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by calcuttaman
Are those online yet? I couldn't find a link.
Dr. Dave is also trying to prepare for the first week of classes at "The Home of the Rams" which started yesterday, so there might be some delay. The videos require a fair amount of editing, and we were shooting various things for about 16 hours on both regular and high-speed video. I'm video editing impaired.


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Thank you - 08-26-2008, 09:13 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Jewett
That's true, but I think it is useful for the referee to prepare himself with observations like, "if the cue ball hits this ball first, the balls will go this way, but if the cue ball hits the other ball first, the balls will go like that, all things going as usual." It is then possible for the player to play a shot the ref didn't expect at all, and then the ref will have to do the best he can in the unfamiliar situation.

One shot many refs have trouble with is when the cue ball is a quarter-inch from the object ball and the player plays straight at the object ball. It is possible using any of several techniques to do this without a double hit. It is even possible to get the cue ball to follow forward with a legal hit in this situation. Many refs have never seen such a shot done legally, and are likely to get the call wrong due to lack of knowledge.
Bob,
Thank you for the input on this. I think I have been pretty much on when calling hits but then you have two players with adverse agendas and they can TRY to argue.


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08-26-2008, 09:44 PM

Another good thread here. What is not being said yet, is the referee MUST be in proper position to see the shot, if he wants to make a good call. I don't know how many times I've seen a referee totally out of position to call a shot. In pro tournaments no less. More often than not, I want to see the cue ball coming toward the other balls, not be following it's path down the table. So I will "get behind" the shot so I can see the cue ball as it arrives. And be close to the balls.

And I have no problem getting close to the table or the player if that is what is required. Some referees feel like they are somehow interfering with the player by standing too close. I say get where you need to be to see the shot! And then stand perfectly still.

I do not like to explain anything prior to watching a close hit. It's not my job to tell a player how to shoot a shot. That's his job. If they question me or tell me what they are going to do, I tell them to go ahead and shoot the shot and then I'll call it. How can you tell someone if they've made a good hit or a bad one before they shoot. I don't like to get into discussions prior to a shot.

This being said, there is loads of good advice on this thread. A good referee will observe what path the cue ball and object balls "should" take after contact on a good hit, and also on a bad one. Sometimes this is the only way to determine if a hit is good, particularly when a player shoots hard.

And last, after a shot, it is okay to hesitate a second to analyze what you just saw, to make the right call. But when you make the call be decisive, do not hem haw around. Make the call with certainty. And that's it, you're done. You can now walk away from the table. You don't need to stand there waiting for approval from the players.

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