Frozen Cueball to object ball
- Thread starter Pete
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BCAPL you do not need to shoot at a 45 if they are fully frozen. You may shot straight at it. You may not rest your tip on the CB and then give a shove.
http://www.playcsipool.com/uploads/7/3/5/9/7359673/official_rules_of_csi__170714_.pdf
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http://www.playcsipool.com/uploads/7/3/5/9/7359673/official_rules_of_csi__170714_.pdf
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Under WPA rules, you may shoot through the CB, with a level cue, and one continuous stroke... not a push, not a foul
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Here’s the WPA section that Scott is referring to. I believe BCA tournaments adhere to WPA rules but may have their own copy of them posted online.
https://wpapool.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/WPA_New_Rules_01MAR2016-fixed-spelling.pdf#page18
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https://wpapool.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/WPA_New_Rules_01MAR2016-fixed-spelling.pdf#page18
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this never made any sense to me. if the balls are close enough you are suddenly allowed to double hit the cb. what is the reasoning behind this?
Perhaps to prevent advantage to the player that intentionally gets the CB & OB to touch?
Is it a double hit if they’re frozen?
No, it's not a double hit. High speed video shows that the two balls leave the tip at the same time, separating as they go. In fact, it's pretty much impossible to get a double hit this way.
pj
chgo
It is not a double hit. The cue ball never leaves the tip during the contact.
Suppose the cue ball is frozen to the one ball at nine ball. What should be allowed?
It would be possible to play it like snooker, where the player gets credit for the hit even if he shoots away and he must shoot away. It would be possible to play it as in carom where the cue ball would be spotted somewhere.
The way it is played has been more or less the same for a long time. Would you like to change the rule?
As Bob said above, in snooker you can shoot away from the frozen OB and it's counted as a "hit" - in pool it's not. What is the minimum requirement for getting a "hit" on a frozen OB in pool? I play that the OB must visibly move (i.e., the CB must be aimed slightly toward the OB compared with the tangent line).
A related question: what's the smallest "cut" angle that definitely won't be a double hit for balls that are slightly separated? I think 45 degrees.
pj
chgo
A related question: what's the smallest "cut" angle that definitely won't be a double hit for balls that are slightly separated? I think 45 degrees.
pj
chgo
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This is a terrible rule! I can do all kinds of funny things with an object ball frozen to the cue ball if I'm allowed to shoot/push through it. We never used to allow shots like this. You had to either shoot away from the frozen ball or shoot across it. One more example of a rules committee that has little real understanding of our game. If that offends anyone on here, so be it.
Here's a couple more genius rule changes by the powers that be. Making the eight on the break in Eight Ball is no longer a win. This is a LOT harder to do then making the nine ball on the break and yet one counts and the other doesn't. No more two way shots! This is only one of the more interesting shots (offensively and defensively) in the games of 9-Ball and Ten Ball. The ten ball does not count on the break in Ten Ball! Again, far harder to do then make the nine ball on the break and yet it doesn't count. There are more, but you get the idea.
Here's a couple more genius rule changes by the powers that be. Making the eight on the break in Eight Ball is no longer a win. This is a LOT harder to do then making the nine ball on the break and yet one counts and the other doesn't. No more two way shots! This is only one of the more interesting shots (offensively and defensively) in the games of 9-Ball and Ten Ball. The ten ball does not count on the break in Ten Ball! Again, far harder to do then make the nine ball on the break and yet it doesn't count. There are more, but you get the idea.
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Pushing the cue ball through the frozen object ball is a lot different from shooting through it with a normal stroke. Push shots are not allowed.
Are you saying that if you were frozen to the one ball you had to shoot away?
And exactly what was shooting across the ball? I've never seen that in any official rule set before the eight ball leagues started writing their own.
bob: i guess i stand corrected after watching dr.daves video. that's you shooting? i still think some of the hits are funky, by the sound and first glance of it, but the slo-mo should be telling the truth i guess
i do play by the wpa rules, but i always shoot away thin
i do play by the wpa rules, but i always shoot away thin
With the rules as they are, that's a bad way to play.
Double hitting the cueball would be a foul. When they are frozen you need to use a straight stroke which won't result in a double hit. I always shoot with top spin in this situation so the tip does not hit the cueball twice but goes over the cueball.
I know this is gonna sound confusing, but:
On a frozen pair, you can shoot with a normal stroke straight through. You cannot push straight through. Pushing is an illegal stroke. Stroking straight through with a normal stroke is legal.
Pushing the cueball, regardless if it’s frozen to an object ball or not, is illegal. Decades of discussions, people still have a confusion on what the term “pushing” means for strokes. It really has nothing to do with any object ball (the APA and Bob Byrne have confused players for decades). It’s only about tip and cueball interaction. You cannot push the cueball (like a broom).
Freddie <~~~ and here we go
Freddie is correct. When the cueball is frozen to the object ball a stroke through the cueball in any direction which causes both balls to move is legal. In my opinion, it's best if a referee can watch the stroke to determine if that stroke is legal or an illegal push. Another important factor to consider: are the two balls actually frozen? If not, then the whole situation is different. Again, a referee should be present to make the call.
The last time I saw this happen was at Steinway in a Charlie Williams "World 14.1" match between Johnny Archer and Stephan Cohen. Stephan pushed through, rather than stroking the cueball. Johnny questioned the shot, but there was no referee watching, so no foul was called.
I haven't heard of the "no two way shots" rule. Is this a real thing?
The breaking rules make sense though....
8ball: You must clear off all of your designated balls before pocketing the 8 for a win. So it makes sense that it shouldn't count as a win if you make it on the break. Though I do like the old called break shot, "8 in the side." Those barbox days were great!
9ball: Anytime the 9 drops on a legal shot it counts as a win. So it makes sense that it's a win on the snap.
10ball: It's a "no slop" game. Every shot must be called. So it makes sense that the 10 on the snap is not a win. But it should be if you can call the correct pocket!
In a tournament with pro players, it would be ok to shoot with one continuous stroke , they know the rules or will at least abide by whatever everyone says is the way they are playing at that particular event.
In the pool, room I go to , they always defer to an old player who hasn't been to a tournament in 50 years and never plays any other good players . He always says foulI have shown him the rules 20 times over the years and he still calls foul because he was always a better player than me.
The people who ask for rulings will abide what what someone else says about 50 % of the time anyway , so why bother getting involved.
In that pool room I jack up or shoot away , I'm done trying to educate anyone.
The worst part of it is that if I am minding my own business showing someone how to make frozen ball shots in case they play somewhere else, this doofus and a couple of his butt lickers will always come over and say , why do you practice illegal shots?
I have recently, just started making grunting noises, and humming and whistling at the same time, in response.
You have to speak idiot fluently, to survive this place.
In the pool, room I go to , they always defer to an old player who hasn't been to a tournament in 50 years and never plays any other good players . He always says foulI have shown him the rules 20 times over the years and he still calls foul because he was always a better player than me.
The people who ask for rulings will abide what what someone else says about 50 % of the time anyway , so why bother getting involved.
In that pool room I jack up or shoot away , I'm done trying to educate anyone.
The worst part of it is that if I am minding my own business showing someone how to make frozen ball shots in case they play somewhere else, this doofus and a couple of his butt lickers will always come over and say , why do you practice illegal shots?
I have recently, just started making grunting noises, and humming and whistling at the same time, in response.
You have to speak idiot fluently, to survive this place.