Why dont pool leagues take cards?

jaime_lion

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Why haven't pool leagues decided to take cards yet? Why do I have t use cash? I am not talking about betting I am talking about legit pool leagues. My axe throwing league takes cards so does the bowling league. Why do I need cash for pool leagues?

Thanks

Hopefully someone can give me a good answer.
 

gregnice37

Bar Banger, Cue Collector
Silver Member
I can only assume they don't want to get each LO a card reader for their phones.
 

Tin Man

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
merchant services

Prior to doing pool bootcamps I was a corporate guy working for a big bank doing merchant services, i.e. helping businesses get set up to accept credit cards. When business owners would come in to set up accounts for a business they opened or bought I'd be called in to see if they needed to accept cards. I worked with everything from restaurant and retail point of sales to ecommerce.

I did have a few conversations with our APA operator who banked with us. We had a couple of options. One was to do 'card present', meaning we had someone with a card reader on site to take a card and swipe it manually and run a sale. But he wasn't always at the leagues and he had a number of different people running leagues different places on different nights, and he didn't feel it would be practical to get that many readers floating around and then having the teams have to track down the person with the reader.

The other option (which I liked better) was to do 'card not present', meaning he'd have an online portal where anyone could key in their card info and expiration date. It would be encrypted and stored (all *s except the last 4 digits) but he could then bill it per request. My thought was that on the first night of league he could bring it up at the player's meeting that anyone that wanted to pay by card could enter their card in and he'd have it on file. They if they ever were short on cash they could just write 'bill my card' on the league envelope and he could run the payment through at his office. Of course he could always add someone along the way.

It wasn't free and it would cost him about $15-20/month plus roughly 3.5% of the transactions but that's pretty cheap. He could pass on 4% to his customers which would only be about $.50 to them and he didn't care about the monthly fee.

In the end it didn't quite happen. He tried asking his customers if they'd use it if he set it up but never really followed through or there wasn't enough interest.

My opinion though is that change is hard. It takes focused energy to change habits and behavior and even if the change would be a net positive in the long run there needs to be enough short term pain to prompt people into action. It has to be a need, not a 'it would be nice'. It just wasn't quite important enough to spend the time and energy to put it together. I've seen that at smaller churches and other places too where they want to accept donations by card but have a hard time getting it to launch. Once people know they can pay by card and how to do it, it's rolling smooth, the employees know how to use the tools, hey, it's great. But again, it takes gumption to get it to launch. I set up a few places like this and it was 50/50 whether they actually got it to stick.

Funny how things work. We pick our battles and muddle through. So in short there is no good reason that a league doesn't accept cards other than inertia, but you can't underestimate the path of least resistance.
 
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garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You must be a joy to play with. Is there anything about pool you DON'T whine about? You've asked more off-the-air questions on here in 2mos than i've heard in my entire life. Either play or don't play.
 

CocoboloCowboy

Cowboys are my hero's
Silver Member
Why haven't pool leagues decided to take cards yet? Why do I have t use cash? I am not talking about betting I am talking about legit pool leagues. My axe throwing league takes cards so does the bowling league. Why do I need cash for pool leagues?

Thanks

Hopefully someone can give me a good answer.

My guess is like a lot of businesses that operate under the radar, to avoid State & Federsl Income Taxes. BTW the IRS pays a bounty for turning in people who make income, and do not report it.

Honestly a Square gizmo for your Smart Phone is cheap to use, deductable as a business expense, plus you are not walking the street at night with a wad of cash on your person. The electronic transfer goes right to you bank account.

Something is fishy.
 

tuffstuff07

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Could go a step further and have them take venmo, cash app, or PayPal.

Players could take the money directly from their bank account and it would even have a trail to where you could make sure they got the payment.
 

tuffstuff07

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Could go a step further and have them take venmo, cash app, or PayPal.

Players could take the money directly from their bank account and it would even have a trail to where you could make sure they got the payment.
 

jaime_lion

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Could go a step further and have them take venmo, cash app, or PayPal.

Players could take the money directly from their bank account and it would even have a trail to where you could make sure they got the payment.

So I was part of a test for a finger print payment system that linked a finger print to your bank account and then you could pay with a scan of your fingerprint. I loved that. But sadly the business did not make it due to bureaucracy with credit card people. Also this was like 6 years ago so I never thought about a global pandemic. So now I am not sure if I wold like a fingerprint payment system. Maybe a retinal scan system. Something where you dont have to touch stuff.
 

jimmyco

NRA4Life
Silver Member
My guess is like a lot of businesses that operate under the radar, to avoid State & Federsl Income Taxes. BTW the IRS pays a bounty for turning in people who make income, and do not report it.

Honestly a Square gizmo for your Smart Phone is cheap to use, deductable as a business expense, plus you are not walking the street at night with a wad of cash on your person. The electronic transfer goes right to you bank account.

Something is fishy.


So, is this bounty considered income?

qui cum canibus concumbunt cum pulicibus surgent
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
So, is this bounty considered income?

qui cum canibus concumbunt cum pulicibus surgent
I normally wear a flea collar, so I'm not so concerned with the last part.

I heard that the IRS gave the informant 10% of the recovered funds and an audit.

Bob <-- picked up interesting habits in the pool hall and does not need an audit.
 

justadub

Rattling corners nightly
Silver Member
Why haven't pool leagues decided to take cards yet? Why do I have t use cash? I am not talking about betting I am talking about legit pool leagues. My axe throwing league takes cards so does the bowling league. Why do I need cash for pool leagues?

Thanks

Hopefully someone can give me a good answer.

Again, in the event you really aren't trolling, here is your answer.

It is very likely that most League Operators have some sort of electronic payment method. Mine does. But payment each week is per team, not per individual. So the team captain is responsible for collecting the teams fees for the week, and getting that money to the League Operator.

The League Operator takes their cut, and then forwards what they are supposed to the League itself. At least with APA. I suspect that other leagues will operate on a similar premise.

So it's not a simple thing for you to pay your weekly match money electronically unless your team captain will accept it that way.

That's how pool leagues work.
 
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glfgd82

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Many of these places operate by cash because the money goes multiple places once you pay your weekly fee.

Let's say you operate 100% electronically and your weekly fee is $15

The fee when you pay them is .74

$14.26 remains

Now take out greens fees (we pay greens fees here, i know other places don't) Yet another transaction via card with a fee of .40 ($3 per person here)

$10.86 remains

Now the league operator must pay dues to the APA or whatever organization, lets say royalties are 18% so $2.70 is owed, and there is a fee on top of that owed of .39 cents.

So the operator has $6.97 left after paying fees and expenses. Because of the operator taking in income via a legit account (for all purposes let's say they did use a linked business account), they then have to pay taxes on said income of the whole $15 even though other fees came out of this total. Yes they show expenses, but uncle sam would get the cut of the $15 whole even though it got sliced up.

Take it even further, what happens to that 6.97 afterwards, if there is a prize fund and they pay it electronically, do they eat the cost for sending or do you? Lets say you won $1000 from the league, are you eating the $30.18 cents or do you expect the operator to?

I get the convenience of it all, but many forget about the true cost of it. When you pay in cash, the trail and "books" side of it is a bit simpler, there's less little bits getting cut out of the fund at every step.

I run fishing tourneys in the summer, some large scale and very good money events. I tell my anglers up front, "your paying the fee for paypal if you choose to pay that way" my club takes 3% on average from the pot, I run them for fun and to boost my clubs funds for our events we do. People are used to putting cash into a hat and going out and playing for it, if I told someone first prize was $8,423.87 they'd look at me funny. Yes I 1099 my winners over $600 in a year, everything is still legit, but I run things simple as I'm providing a service for them, not a business where I need to run down the extra hassle that comes with multiple deposits and payments.
 

APA Operator

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It wasn't free and it would cost him about $15-20/month plus roughly 3.5% of the transactions but that's pretty cheap. He could pass on 4% to his customers which would only be about $.50 to them and he didn't care about the monthly fee.

As the seller (of the credit card setup) it's understandable that this is the thought process. But as the consumer (league operator) it looks like this.

To pass on the credit card charge to our customers, we would have to raise prices. In our industry, you can't raise prices by 3.5%. For a $40 league fee/team, that would make the price $41.40. While you could do that, it is impractical. It's not like a gas station where the price increase is as granular as a tenth of a penny. League fees are almost universally divisible in even dollar amounts by the number of people who play, to keep things simple for the payers and the payee. What happens if three of the five who pay want to use a card and two want to use cash? Do you charge $8.28 to those using a card and $8 to those who pay cash, or is it $8.28 to everyone? If it's everyone, what do you do with the other $0.56? Keep it? Then you get accused of being greedy. Also, you would have to do the tracking per person and that quickly becomes a mess.

So leagues typically charge per team. But is the league fee $41.40 if you pay by card and $40 if paid by cash? Again, certainly doable and the tracking issue goes away, but now you've created an issue for the captain (or whoever pays). Collecting $8.28 from each player is more complicated than they want to deal with. If they collect less, they're stuck, and if they collect more, those who want to pay cash will complain that they're paying too much. I know most people don't care if they pay an extra $.28, but they'll complain anyway and besides, who really wants to deal with that $.28?

So if the charge is passed on, the price increase is usually $5, or $4, or however many people contribute to the league fee. Now you've raised prices $5 to cover a (now $1.75) fee. What do you do with the other $3.25? If you keep it, again you're greedy. If you pay it back another interesting phenomenon happens. Do you pay back all $5 for those teams paying cash and $3.25 for those who use a card? Again, tracking becomes a nightmare. One team complains that they should get more back because they paid cash all season, they're unhappy because they "contributed" more by not using a card.

Eventually everyone will accept cards, or some form of electronic payment. What will typically happen is the LO will absorb those fees and not pass them on at first, then the next price increase will typically absorb them, but here's what happens until that price increase occurs. The federal government doesn't tax that portion of league fees that are returned directly to players via cash payback, trophies, and other prizes. So you keep track of that money separately as non-revenue, not subject to tax. And you can't decrease it or you'll get crucified. That means the 3.5% fee is covered by the revenue portion of the team fee and can become as much as 7% of revenue. Because your revenue hasn't increased but your costs have, that all comes out of profit and becomes a much bigger percentage. Even at a 50% profit margin, profits are reduced by 14%. At a 10% margin, you just reduced your profits by 70%. How would you feel if Uncle Sam raised your tax rate by 14-70%? That's the net effect.

So even though electronic payment is inevitable, it will typically be aligned with a price increase, and many LO's are reluctant to make that increase until the time is right.

In a not-for-profit league, the fees are just subtracted from the payouts, so the payouts go down an equal amount or are covered by a price increase. In other non-pool leagues, it is exactly the same. Those running the league for profit will be reluctant to start accepting cards until they can justify a price increase and cover the fees, and not-for-profit leagues will be less reluctant.
 

CocoboloCowboy

Cowboys are my hero's
Silver Member
So, is this bounty considered income?

Better to claim it, then have to SPLAIN to the IRS. Remember when I had a small business. Everyone I did work for over $500.00 - or $600.00 sent a 1099.

I just claimed everything, and keep a ledger accounting system. That way if I ever got contacted by IRS.

I have the records to account for everything.

IRS, Franchise Tax Board want their cut of profits. Worst part was do did Social Security, they got like 17%.
 

APA Operator

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Could go a step further and have them take venmo, cash app, or PayPal.

Players could take the money directly from their bank account and it would even have a trail to where you could make sure they got the payment.

Most providers of electronic payment platforms charge a similar fee for businesses. Using a "friends and family" option for business transactions is not allowed. The exception I know of is Zelle, used by most banks in the US, but then you either break the team fee into individual portions and deal with that mess, or you build something on top of it to restrict it to the team amount.
 

Johnny Rosato

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Wow, you were just *****ing about paying an extra $8 for an extra match
and now you're *****ing about them not taking credit cards?
You can bring correct change if you're worried about touching stuff,
but you're still gonna have to touch the tables and balls if you have to rack.
 
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