Go Back   AzBilliards.com > Instruction & Ask the pros > Ask The Instructor
Reload this Page why did jose hit the 9 this way?
Reply
Page 3 of 4 123 4
 
Share Thread Tools Rate Thread
Old
  (#31)
BilliardsAbout
Billiards.About.com
BilliardsAbout has a reputation beyond reputeBilliardsAbout has a reputation beyond reputeBilliardsAbout has a reputation beyond reputeBilliardsAbout has a reputation beyond reputeBilliardsAbout has a reputation beyond reputeBilliardsAbout has a reputation beyond reputeBilliardsAbout has a reputation beyond reputeBilliardsAbout has a reputation beyond reputeBilliardsAbout has a reputation beyond reputeBilliardsAbout has a reputation beyond reputeBilliardsAbout has a reputation beyond repute
 
BilliardsAbout's Avatar
 
Status: Online
Posts: 1,357
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Gainesville, FL
   
07-11-2019, 06:02 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by sparkle84 View Post
I'm looking at the diagram and I'm sorry but the 2 CB's to the right are identical as to the angle of the shaft and tip contact point on the CB. You're saying they're different somehow???
And what about the one farthest to the right, why is the follow thru coming out way to the left whereas the other 2 go straight thru. Is that possibly accomplished by using a figure 8 stroke? I've heard of that stroke but I've never actually seen anyone do it.
Another thing I'm curious about is why you say parallel english is false english. What's the deal with that?

Back/front, parallel, swooping or whatever; the type and/or amount of english is governed by tip contact point, levelness of cue and quality of delivery into the CB.

One thing I'll say about swooping is that there are a lot of people who do it because they grew up with it and are comfortable with it.
However, I would not recommend it for 2 specific reasons.
One is that it has a tendency to promote wrist twisting which most would agree is bad.
Another is that, once mastered, it works fine (most of the time) as long as you're playing a lot and are in good stroke. But if you're not playing much you'll have difficulty by getting either too much or not enough english and miss shots because of that.
Look at the arrows of motion in the right diagram. They go straight ahead, not pointed in the direction the cue stick is aligned. PJ does this motion as a preset offset. That is, aim with english, so that cue is very slightly diagonal along its length, 57" long but a tip or however much to the side, now ignore the diagonal and stroke back and forth.

A little flick of wrist twist can do the same thing, although PJ is describing a straight stroke and I'm describing a curve, the diagram reflects this fact of a diagonal cue coming straight or nearly so through impact--I will redo the diagram today.

Now I agree with you regarding the use of the shot. But when you have an ob close to the pocket and a cb nearby the ob, and want to really work that english without the offset cue near the miscue point...


-- Matt Sherman

Guide to Pool and Billiards, About.com
Instruction Staff, InsidePool Magazine
Author, book/DVD combo, Picture Yourself Shooting Pool
  
Reply With Quote

Old
  (#32)
Bob Jewett
Northern California

Bob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond repute
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 16,274
vCash: 1700
iTrader: 12 / 100%
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Berkeley, CA
   
07-11-2019, 08:53 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BilliardsAbout View Post
On a random basis, look at ten YouTube pros i ...
Why don't you just answer the question by giving a few pros that are the best examples of swooping strokes?


Bob Jewett
SF Billiard Academy
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#33)
AtLarge
AzB Gold Member
AtLarge has a reputation beyond reputeAtLarge has a reputation beyond reputeAtLarge has a reputation beyond reputeAtLarge has a reputation beyond reputeAtLarge has a reputation beyond reputeAtLarge has a reputation beyond reputeAtLarge has a reputation beyond reputeAtLarge has a reputation beyond reputeAtLarge has a reputation beyond reputeAtLarge has a reputation beyond reputeAtLarge has a reputation beyond repute
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 10,587
vCash: 500
iTrader: 77 / 100%
Join Date: Apr 2008
   
07-11-2019, 12:06 PM

Here's the key takeaway from this thread -- they played races to 5 in the group stage of the WPA World Championship in 2004.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#34)
BilliardsAbout
Billiards.About.com
BilliardsAbout has a reputation beyond reputeBilliardsAbout has a reputation beyond reputeBilliardsAbout has a reputation beyond reputeBilliardsAbout has a reputation beyond reputeBilliardsAbout has a reputation beyond reputeBilliardsAbout has a reputation beyond reputeBilliardsAbout has a reputation beyond reputeBilliardsAbout has a reputation beyond reputeBilliardsAbout has a reputation beyond reputeBilliardsAbout has a reputation beyond reputeBilliardsAbout has a reputation beyond repute
 
BilliardsAbout's Avatar
 
Status: Online
Posts: 1,357
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Gainesville, FL
   
07-11-2019, 01:11 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
Why don't you just answer the question by giving a few pros that are the best examples of swooping strokes?
Respectfully, sir, I've mentioned Dom Esposito and Tom Kennedy in my note above.

Efren Reyes somewhat popularized the style, called "carabao" english as a carabao is a Filipino water buffalo--as in buffalo leather cue tip material. I can't remember if AZ readers recognize that Ralph Greenleaf used a swoop...


-- Matt Sherman

Guide to Pool and Billiards, About.com
Instruction Staff, InsidePool Magazine
Author, book/DVD combo, Picture Yourself Shooting Pool
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#35)
Bob Jewett
Northern California

Bob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond repute
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 16,274
vCash: 1700
iTrader: 12 / 100%
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Berkeley, CA
   
07-11-2019, 01:45 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BilliardsAbout View Post
... I've mentioned Dom Esposito and Tom Kennedy in my note above.

Efren Reyes somewhat popularized the style, called "carabao" english as a carabao is a Filipino water buffalo--as in buffalo leather cue tip material. I can't remember if AZ readers recognize that Ralph Greenleaf used a swoop...
So, nobody in the top 50 in the world?

Further, while Greenleaf did a fair amount of side-to-side fiddling on his warmups, the side spin shots I've seen in old newsreels on YouTube are pretty straight. Is there some video that shows otherwise?

Also, maybe Efren did something else in the last millennium but lately he seems to address the cue ball where he intends to hit it and comes straight through for side spin shots. Do you have an example video of him doing a swoop on the power stroke?


Bob Jewett
SF Billiard Academy
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#36)
sparkle84
AzB Silver Member
sparkle84 has a reputation beyond reputesparkle84 has a reputation beyond reputesparkle84 has a reputation beyond reputesparkle84 has a reputation beyond reputesparkle84 has a reputation beyond reputesparkle84 has a reputation beyond reputesparkle84 has a reputation beyond reputesparkle84 has a reputation beyond reputesparkle84 has a reputation beyond reputesparkle84 has a reputation beyond reputesparkle84 has a reputation beyond repute
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 229
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Salem, NH
   
07-11-2019, 03:53 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BilliardsAbout View Post
Look at the arrows of motion in the right diagram. They go straight ahead, not pointed in the direction the cue stick is aligned. PJ does this motion as a preset offset. That is, aim with english, so that cue is very slightly diagonal along its length, 57" long but a tip or however much to the side, now ignore the diagonal and stroke back and forth.

A little flick of wrist twist can do the same thing, although PJ is describing a straight stroke and I'm describing a curve, the diagram reflects this fact of a diagonal cue coming straight or nearly so through impact--I will redo the diagram today.

Now I agree with you regarding the use of the shot. But when you have an ob close to the pocket and a cb nearby the ob, and want to really work that english without the offset cue near the miscue point...
First of all I'm well aware of what a swoop stroke is, I've been doing it for 50+ years.
Now you're saying that you agree with me regarding the use of the shot. You continue by saying well, if the balls close to the pocket, etc. etc. then it's ok to use that technique because you can get more juice while decreasing your miscue frequency.
That's ridiculous. If anything, you are more likely to miscue because introducing more variables means execution and especially timing are more likely to break down.
As for getting more juice, well, that's another highly questionable statement
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#37)
BilliardsAbout
Billiards.About.com
BilliardsAbout has a reputation beyond reputeBilliardsAbout has a reputation beyond reputeBilliardsAbout has a reputation beyond reputeBilliardsAbout has a reputation beyond reputeBilliardsAbout has a reputation beyond reputeBilliardsAbout has a reputation beyond reputeBilliardsAbout has a reputation beyond reputeBilliardsAbout has a reputation beyond reputeBilliardsAbout has a reputation beyond reputeBilliardsAbout has a reputation beyond reputeBilliardsAbout has a reputation beyond repute
 
BilliardsAbout's Avatar
 
Status: Online
Posts: 1,357
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Gainesville, FL
   
07-12-2019, 04:53 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
So, nobody in the top 50 in the world?

Further, while Greenleaf did a fair amount of side-to-side fiddling on his warmups, the side spin shots I've seen in old newsreels on YouTube are pretty straight. Is there some video that shows otherwise?

Also, maybe Efren did something else in the last millennium but lately he seems to address the cue ball where he intends to hit it and comes straight through for side spin shots. Do you have an example video of him doing a swoop on the power stroke?
I would emphasize it's sometimes called carabao because of its prevalence among legendary Filipino players, and how they revived the knowledge of the technique via demonstration as they rose to the top ranks in the sport.

You and I have seen countless pros, including top 50 players, follow through on strokes with their cue obviously pointed away from the shot line, to a much greater degree than a straight stroke would take them with pivot english or offset english.


-- Matt Sherman

Guide to Pool and Billiards, About.com
Instruction Staff, InsidePool Magazine
Author, book/DVD combo, Picture Yourself Shooting Pool

Last edited by BilliardsAbout; 07-12-2019 at 08:19 AM.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#38)
BilliardsAbout
Billiards.About.com
BilliardsAbout has a reputation beyond reputeBilliardsAbout has a reputation beyond reputeBilliardsAbout has a reputation beyond reputeBilliardsAbout has a reputation beyond reputeBilliardsAbout has a reputation beyond reputeBilliardsAbout has a reputation beyond reputeBilliardsAbout has a reputation beyond reputeBilliardsAbout has a reputation beyond reputeBilliardsAbout has a reputation beyond reputeBilliardsAbout has a reputation beyond reputeBilliardsAbout has a reputation beyond repute
 
BilliardsAbout's Avatar
 
Status: Online
Posts: 1,357
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Gainesville, FL
   
07-12-2019, 05:03 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by sparkle84 View Post
First of all I'm well aware of what a swoop stroke is, I've been doing it for 50+ years.
Now you're saying that you agree with me regarding the use of the shot. You continue by saying well, if the balls close to the pocket, etc. etc. then it's ok to use that technique because you can get more juice while decreasing your miscue frequency.
That's ridiculous. If anything, you are more likely to miscue because introducing more variables means execution and especially timing are more likely to break down.
As for getting more juice, well, that's another highly questionable statement
If you don't swoop all the time because it introduces variables, when do you swoop? I'm open for discussion.


-- Matt Sherman

Guide to Pool and Billiards, About.com
Instruction Staff, InsidePool Magazine
Author, book/DVD combo, Picture Yourself Shooting Pool

Last edited by BilliardsAbout; 07-12-2019 at 05:19 AM.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#39)
Patrick Johnson
Fish of the Day
Patrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond repute
 
Patrick Johnson's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 19,547
vCash: 1700
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Jun 2007
   
07-12-2019, 09:37 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by sparkle84 View Post
As for getting more juice, well, that's another highly questionable statement
Actually it's not questionable at all - it's just wrong.

And shouldn't be promoted by an "instructor".

pj
chgo
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#40)
BilliardsAbout
Billiards.About.com
BilliardsAbout has a reputation beyond reputeBilliardsAbout has a reputation beyond reputeBilliardsAbout has a reputation beyond reputeBilliardsAbout has a reputation beyond reputeBilliardsAbout has a reputation beyond reputeBilliardsAbout has a reputation beyond reputeBilliardsAbout has a reputation beyond reputeBilliardsAbout has a reputation beyond reputeBilliardsAbout has a reputation beyond reputeBilliardsAbout has a reputation beyond reputeBilliardsAbout has a reputation beyond repute
 
BilliardsAbout's Avatar
 
Status: Online
Posts: 1,357
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Gainesville, FL
   
07-12-2019, 11:23 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
Actually it's not questionable at all - it's just wrong.

And shouldn't be promoted by an "instructor".

pj
chgo
A different angle of attack can provide less or more spin, we've already agreed, but how about if swooping makes life sweet? Does every player and every pro have to approach the game the same, like automatons?

I have students in their 50's and 60's, even their 70's and 80's, who have struggled lifelong to hit a shot with a tip of english and pocket the ball with shape! Their whole life--you can play very well PJ--and understand our sport immensely, you have much to contribute--now add some empathy for weaker students to your large skill sets.

I avoid teaching english in lessons for the same reasons others do. But if someone at a paid lesson or free clinic says they are struggling hard to use english, and I take a minute or two to show them a technique new to them, which could be swoop instead of offset, or pivot instead of parallel, and they start having fun with english, they high five me or give me a hug or a hearty handshake.

We've all had that moment teaching someone, so why is everyone here concerned so much about every other instructor's students?

Swooping is (obviously, per this thread) not for everyone. But why is everyone so concerned if someone else does it and it ups their game?

I appreciate your zeal that pool is taught correctly. A part of teaching correctly is recognizing different strokes literally are for different folks.


-- Matt Sherman

Guide to Pool and Billiards, About.com
Instruction Staff, InsidePool Magazine
Author, book/DVD combo, Picture Yourself Shooting Pool
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#41)
Patrick Johnson
Fish of the Day
Patrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond repute
 
Patrick Johnson's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 19,547
vCash: 1700
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Jun 2007
   
07-12-2019, 01:36 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BilliardsAbout View Post
Swooping is (obviously, per this thread) not for everyone. But why is everyone so concerned if someone else does it and it ups their game?
I doubt that it ups anybody's game compared with how they'd play if taught a working straight stroke.

pj
chgo
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#42)
sparkle84
AzB Silver Member
sparkle84 has a reputation beyond reputesparkle84 has a reputation beyond reputesparkle84 has a reputation beyond reputesparkle84 has a reputation beyond reputesparkle84 has a reputation beyond reputesparkle84 has a reputation beyond reputesparkle84 has a reputation beyond reputesparkle84 has a reputation beyond reputesparkle84 has a reputation beyond reputesparkle84 has a reputation beyond reputesparkle84 has a reputation beyond repute
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 229
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Salem, NH
   
07-12-2019, 03:04 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BilliardsAbout View Post
If you don't swoop all the time because it introduces variables, when do you swoop? I'm open for discussion.
After this, I'm closed for discussion. In order to engage in a back and forth with someone both parties have to be capable of reading and understanding what the other says and then replying in a logical manner.
It appears that this is something you somehow can't comprehend. Every reply you've given to the people questioning your premises (PJ, Bob Jewett and myself) has had nothing to do with what we actually said.
Instead you're off on another tangent, totally unrelated to any points we've attempted to convey.
Case in point is my opening sentence in this post. We'll see if you've listened.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#43)
sparkle84
AzB Silver Member
sparkle84 has a reputation beyond reputesparkle84 has a reputation beyond reputesparkle84 has a reputation beyond reputesparkle84 has a reputation beyond reputesparkle84 has a reputation beyond reputesparkle84 has a reputation beyond reputesparkle84 has a reputation beyond reputesparkle84 has a reputation beyond reputesparkle84 has a reputation beyond reputesparkle84 has a reputation beyond reputesparkle84 has a reputation beyond repute
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 229
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Salem, NH
   
07-12-2019, 03:28 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
Actually it's not questionable at all - it's just wrong.

And shouldn't be promoted by an "instructor".

pj
chgo
Yeah, I know pj. Just trying to be a little kind and/or diplomatic. Why, I have no idea. Must be mellowing out in my old age.
Back to the OP. Someone mentioned camera angle on the video. That's a good point because I've seen Jose play many times and if he was using left he'd be addressing the CB on the left. So if it appeared as center ball or slightly right on the video it was probably due to the camera angle.
If nothing else maybe a few people saw Parica for the first time. Not that much quality video of him out there, although there is some. I'd suggest people search it out and take a look. This guy had one of the sweetest strokes you'll ever see.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#44)
Patrick Johnson
Fish of the Day
Patrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond repute
 
Patrick Johnson's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 19,547
vCash: 1700
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Jun 2007
   
07-12-2019, 06:05 PM

By the way, talking about this has made me think of one possible reason that swooping might make squirt compensation seem a little easier, at least at first.

When the player's bridge length is longer than the cue's squirt pivot length (a relatively high squirt cue), then to apply side spin with the cue angled at the correct squirt adjustment angle the bridge must move slightly sideways - or the tip must swoop a little.

I think learning straight-stroke squirt corrections (with the bridge placed as needed) is the right solution, but I can see this one reason swooping might seem to work.

pj
chgo
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#45)
FranCrimi
AzB Silver Member
FranCrimi has a reputation beyond reputeFranCrimi has a reputation beyond reputeFranCrimi has a reputation beyond reputeFranCrimi has a reputation beyond reputeFranCrimi has a reputation beyond reputeFranCrimi has a reputation beyond reputeFranCrimi has a reputation beyond reputeFranCrimi has a reputation beyond reputeFranCrimi has a reputation beyond reputeFranCrimi has a reputation beyond reputeFranCrimi has a reputation beyond repute
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 3,680
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Dec 2010
   
07-13-2019, 09:42 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
Why don't you just answer the question by giving a few pros that are the best examples of swooping strokes?
Many of the pros who learned back in the 80's use that method. I know Earl used to play that way and I think he still does. Tony Robles told me about it in the 80's but I had already learned the technique from Dalton Leong. It was popular among the 9 ball road players of that time.

Even some of the 14.1 players were experimenting with it. If my memory serves me correctly, guys like Ray Martin, Jack Colavita and Pat Fleming all used that technique, at least for some time.

I believe the technique resurfaced again over the last few years. Someone told me about it as if it were a brand new discovery. I laughed.


Been Verified. Supporter of responsible teaching. Background checks for instructors, especially those who teach kids.
  
Reply With Quote
Reply
Page 3 of 4 123 4

Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.