Special tooling for cutting abalone?

kiinstructor

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Was digging through some boxes in my basement and found a bunch of green and multi colored abalone. Ive never worked with it before on my cues but no better time than the present. My questions are do you need special mill for cutting the stuff and once its inlayed in cue does it need any special sanding or cutting a certain way so as not to destroy it. I used a shaft saw machine for tapering my butts after the inlays are installed and it generally comes out like 320 grit in smoothness. Just wondering if the saw teeth will raise hell with this brittle stuff. Thanks for any help or direction.

Mark
 

Thomas Wayne

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Was digging through some boxes in my basement and found a bunch of green and multi colored abalone. Ive never worked with it before on my cues but no better time than the present. My questions are do you need special mill for cutting the stuff and once its inlayed in cue does it need any special sanding or cutting a certain way so as not to destroy it. I used a shaft saw machine for tapering my butts after the inlays are installed and it generally comes out like 320 grit in smoothness. Just wondering if the saw teeth will raise hell with this brittle stuff. Thanks for any help or direction.

Mark

1) Carbide will work fine for machining parts, just use a higher number of less aggressive drops.

2) While not necessary for obtaining a good cut, water will help reduce the dust - which is toxic. Anything from frequent spritzes with a plant sprayer to actually cutting the material immersed will work. If you don't want to cut wet, good dust collection is an absolute must - but not as safe as wet cutting.

3) Do NOT use your saw machine for knocking down the rough inlays; learn to draw-file the inlays "flush" first, so that you are only taking a VERY light skim pass with the saw.

4) Standard sanding practices will suffice.

TW

 

cueman

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
I say Ditto to everything Thomas said. It cannot be stressed enough how bad Abalone dust is for your lungs.
 
cutting down inlays

I don' know if anyone but myself and Kenny have used this technique. I have written 4 axis turning programs that once the inlays are glued in the cue when it is very close to finished size, the mill does a 4th axis clean up pass and brings the inlays to the cue size . there is very little finish sanding and you don't have to worry about pulling out the inlays. if you are using bobcad it is a small program that brings it to cue size and rotates and cut the inlays to the size of the cue. I use a .0625 endmill that is rotating at 22k rpm and the cue rotates very slowly compared to this to give a very fine finish cut. Im sure there other procedures that are just as effective but having the cue level from front to back allows me to write a rotational program that works on all points of the cue.
good luck
Robert Harris
 

Thomas Wayne

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I don' know if anyone but myself and Kenny have used this technique. I have written 4 axis turning programs that once the inlays are glued in the cue when it is very close to finished size, the mill does a 4th axis clean up pass and brings the inlays to the cue size . there is very little finish sanding and you don't have to worry about pulling out the inlays. if you are using bobcad it is a small program that brings it to cue size and rotates and cut the inlays to the size of the cue. I use a .0625 endmill that is rotating at 22k rpm and the cue rotates very slowly compared to this to give a very fine finish cut. Im sure there other procedures that are just as effective but having the cue level from front to back allows me to write a rotational program that works on all points of the cue.
good luck
Robert Harris

Been doing it for many, many years - in fact, I just used that techniques this morning on the forearm of a bridged-miter full splice I'm working on. Rather than level the cue - which is not suitable for this particular construct - I simple create a surface of the entire area's "skin" and machine it with the tip of an endmill in 3-D toolpathing.

To take it up a notch, you can use a down-spiral, an up-spiral, or a zero-helix bit, depending on what inlay material is being cleaned up. Use a down-spiral and you can trim the surface of even the shallowest silver inlay (for example) with no fear of pulling it out. Easy peasy.

But for those who may not have the adequate CNC equipment and/or know-how, the draw-file approach (above) is nearly as good - just takes a little more time and a little more skill.

TW

 

cueman

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member


Been doing it for many, many years - in fact, I just used that techniques this morning on the forearm of a bridged-miter full splice I'm working on. Rather than level the cue - which is not suitable for this particular construct - I simple create a surface of the entire area's "skin" and machine it with the tip of an endmill in 3-D toolpathing.

To take it up a notch, you can use a down-spiral, an up-spiral, or a zero-helix bit, depending on what inlay material is being cleaned up. Use a down-spiral and you can trim the surface of even the shallowest silver inlay (for example) with no fear of pulling it out. Easy peasy.

But for those who may not have the adequate CNC equipment and/or know-how, the draw-file approach (above) is nearly as good - just takes a little more time and a little more skill.

TW


I can see these methods would be helpful when leveling something thin like veneers sticking up out of slots, but for inlays it seems like a waste of time. Am I missing something?
 

kiinstructor

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
So let me get this straight. Cutting the part is no problem. I have a vacuum system in place that virtually eliminates the dust with a light blowing tube adjacent to it as far as the parts. The cue is level in the CNC machine at all times. So once I install the part, I can just run the same pocket program over the installed part making the Z is adjusted for height and clean up the partand make it level with the surface in prep for sanding. Am I getting this right? If not can you simplify please. Thanks for the advice on the dust, I wouldnt have known that.
 

Thomas Wayne

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
So let me get this straight. Cutting the part is no problem. I have a vacuum system in place that virtually eliminates the dust with a light blowing tube adjacent to it as far as the parts. The cue is level in the CNC machine at all times. So once I install the part, I can just run the same pocket program over the installed part making the Z is adjusted for height and clean up the partand make it level with the surface in prep for sanding. Am I getting this right? If not can you simplify please. Thanks for the advice on the dust, I wouldnt have known that.

So let me get this straight.

Do your cut your pockets with an arched bottom surface ("floor")? If not, how do you imagine the "same pocket program" will cut the top of an inlay flush to the curved surface of the cue?

TW

 

Thomas Wayne

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I can see these methods would be helpful when leveling something thin like veneers sticking up out of slots, but for inlays it seems like a waste of time. Am I missing something?

I don't know if you're missing something. Have you ever inlaid a shape cut from 0.026" thick sterling silver and then tried to cut it flush to the surface of the cue on a saw machine?

Or perhaps a V-point cue with 0.010" silver as one of the veneers? You might ask Jake Hulsey about that particular bit of excitement one experiences when one gets to the sharp end of those points. In fact, I believe he offered up just such a cue for burning at Cuestock 2014...

TW

 

cueman

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
I don't taper butts with the saw machine... Only shafts. I have always laid my inlays in deeper than .026". I have allowed the build up of epoxy around .020" silver and wood veneers to make them strong enough to cut with the normal tapering process.
 

scdiveteam

Rick Geschrey
Silver Member
Hi,

I cut my blanks on a dedicated saw machine just for butts.

I have not run into a material yet that does not machine flush. Silver and shell materials are no match for an 80 carbide tooth blade with a feed rate of 6 minutes over 29" with a lathe speed of 175.

Rick
 
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Thomas Wayne

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Hi,

I cut my blanks on a dedicated saw machine just for butts.

I have not run into a material yet that does not machine flush. Silver and shell materials are no match for an 80 carbide tooth blade with a feed rate of 6 minutes over 29" with a lathe speed of 175.

Rick

Well, you've been at this craft for 3 years now, with no particularly delicate OR elaborate inlays under your belt. Check back in when you've got over 30 years in, and have actually done something difficult in the inlay department.

TW

 

scdiveteam

Rick Geschrey
Silver Member


Well, you've been at this craft for 3 years now, with no particularly delicate OR elaborate inlays under your belt. Check back in when you've got over 30 years in, and have actually done something difficult in the inlay department.

TW


I guess your right TW. Maybe I should not have given my opinion to the OP using straight talk.

Relative to the subject matter of this thread however, this butt was taper turned on my dedicated saw machine (80 tooth carbide). I also shared my feeds and speeds with the OP who is a Peer also finding his way just like me.

The walk of 1000 miles begins with the first steps but it should never be a race.

Rick




12 Point playing cue ( not too intricate 2 D compound inlays only ) in-process before sanding & Honey Stain Application to the light Burl:

I could have done the golden proportion numbers on the point lengths but you know me TW, got to go against the grain sometimes.











[/URL[URL=http://s636.photobucket.com/user/scdiveteam/media/scdiveteam026/IMG_6205_zpsrfppyytu.jpg.html]


Jan can't wait to play with his new cue in Vegas this August:
 
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Thomas Wayne

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I guess your right TW. Maybe I should not have given my opinion to the OP using straight talk.

Relative to the subject matter of this thread however, this butt was taper turned on my dedicated saw machine (80 tooth carbide). I also shared my feeds and speeds with the OP who is a Peer also finding his way just like me.

Your opinion comes - as noted above - from your relative inexperience. The cue you show here is inlaid with ABALAM, a composite material made from many layers of thin shell, laminated together with plastic resin. It cuts entirely different from actual shell plates - something you would know if, um, you knew. So it doesn't really qualify as "difficult" in either material OR design - which is what I specifically addressed above.

There's a major difference between knowing a little bit about what you're discussing and knowing a lot. You know a little bit. As you may find out - if you ever succeed in rising much above your current level - is that every new material and every more difficult design will often require a new technique, one that you must either learn or discover on your own. No matter how much of a "genius" you think you are or how "easy" you think cuemaking is, if you believe your saw machine will cut ANY material/inlay design with the same success as this one cue, then you are in for a disappointing surprise or two down the road.

TW
(PS: On a side note, I know/knew the inventors of Abalam quite well, and am very familiar with what can and cannot be done with it. Like the surviving inventor, I'm always disappointed when I see an artisan slap long chunks of it into a workpiece, since such sizes of shell are not representative of what is available in nature. This was not the original intent of the inventors, and to my eye it screams "fake". I personally consider such thoughtless overuse the mark of a rank amateur.)

 
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scdiveteam

Rick Geschrey
Silver Member


Your opinion comes - as noted above - from your relative inexperience. The cue you show here is inlaid with ABALAM, a composite material made from many layers of thin shell, laminated together with plastic resin. It cuts entirely different from actual shell plates - something you would know if, um, you knew. So it doesn't really qualify as "difficult" in either material OR design - which is what I specifically addressed above.

There's a major difference between knowing a little bit about what you're discussing and knowing a lot. You know a little bit. As you may find out - if you ever succeed in rising much above your current level - is that every new material and every more difficult design will often require a new technique, one that you must either learn or discover on your own. No matter how much of a "genius" you think you are or how "easy" you think cuemaking is, if you believe your saw machine will cut ANY material/inlay design with the same success as this one cue, then you are in for a disappointing surprise or two down the road.

TW
(PS: On a side note, I know/knew the inventors of Abalam quite well, and am very familiar with what can and cannot be done with it. Like the surviving inventor, I'm always disappointed when I see an artisan slap long chunks of it into a workpiece, since such sizes of shell are not representative of what is available in nature. This was not the original intent of the inventors, and to my eye it screams "fake". I personally consider such thoughtless overuse the mark of a rank amateur.)


Tom,

I never said that cue was real abalone. I did state on the other post that the 80 tooth carbide saw blade worked well with silver and shell materials. All of the real abalone I have used from Culpepper were very small flat slabs that were about .070. They are very brittle and break like glass if you drop them.

I install those inlays close to the final taper and place a epoxy layer overburden over the inlay creating a hard cured epoxy surface tension. Works good for me. I cut the inlays at a slow travel and each floor is only .015. I use Tap Free cutting fluid and blasts of air monitoring each and every pass until the nesting is done. Tedious!

The real stuff does not come in long lengths for obvious reasons if one is familiar with the shell the slabs are harvested from. The reconstitute stuff is a good alternative for me as my cues are less than 3,000.00. From someone like you who sells 20,000.00 to 100,000.00 cues I can understand your thinking about using the real stuff for small inlays keeping it real as it were. Jan's cue is like a fantasy thing but that's what makes him happy. If he is happy, so am I.

The cue I showed used reconstitute abalone because the size and length of the compounds required by my customer's design request.

Again I will get back to you in 30 years or sooner when my new CNC and Gibbs software is cooking up some intricate inlays.

I do appreciate your comments because I always learn something when you post.

Ricky
 
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JoeyInCali

Maker of Joey Bautista Cues
Silver Member
Looks like it went through real rough cuts .
Look at the black band. Really rough finish.
So does the maple .
That wouldn't even indicate right on my .0005 indicator. Too many pits.

I think you need to sharpen your blade . Or it might not be centered.
When in near finish, I keep all cuts as clean as possible. I use fresh new slot cutter . Pieces come out smooth
 
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scdiveteam

Rick Geschrey
Silver Member
Looks like it went through real rough cuts .
Look at the black band. Really rough finish.
So does the maple .
That wouldn't even indicate right on my .0005 indicator. Too many pits.

I think you need to sharpen your blade . Or it might not be centered.
When in near finish, I keep all cuts as clean as possible. I use fresh new slot cutter . Pieces come out smooth

That cue is still at .860 . The next pass is .005 at 7 minutes feed and then another pass at the same elevation. So judge all you wish. Your shooting a gun with blanks.

That's Madrone Burl not maple.

This is oversized with out sanding.

How much Juma have you used as joint material?

Sands smooth in seconds.
 

JoeyInCali

Maker of Joey Bautista Cues
Silver Member
How much Juma have you used as joint material?
I've used it for ferrule and joint collar .
Cuts pretty smooth on my taper machine with a vfd/spindle .
No pits like that .
 

MVPCues

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
... So judge all you wish. Your shooting a gun with blanks...

The problem with summarily dismissing Joey's (or anyone's for that matter) comments about the finish on that blank is the past claims you have made regarding this subject are in stark contrast. I believe you said something like zero sanding is ever needed with your saw machine and its attached gadgets. Something about a gravity fed delrin stabilizer that works miracles. Speaking from memory, you claimed that the finish off of your saw machine is so smooth that 1000 grit paper actually makes the finish worse. Heck, it may have been 1200. By the end of this post, it may be 1500 smooth.

I get a finish better than the pictures posted with a used bosch 2 wing straight bit in a 20 year old Ryobi trimmer with my lathe set on its fastest feed. That doesn't really mean anything. Obviously, the cue is oversized. But when you make such lofty claims about your machinery and tooling and precision and then your pictures reveal something 180 degrees in the other direction you will invite people to shoot at you, whether live ammo or not. Forgive me, but I think you are your own worse enemy.

Again, yeah, the cue is oversized. It makes no difference what the finish is now. It just...is...well...damn shocking to us all to see that quality of cut given what we have been told in the past. :eek: You ask too much of us. Difficult to comprehend such a dichotomy.
 

SpiderWeb

iisgone@yahoo.com
Silver Member
The problem with summarily dismissing Joey's (or anyone's for that matter) comments about the finish on that blank is the past claims you have made regarding this subject are in stark contrast. I believe you said something like zero sanding is ever needed with your saw machine and its attached gadgets. Something about a gravity fed delrin stabilizer that works miracles. Speaking from memory, you claimed that the finish off of your saw machine is so smooth that 1000 grit paper actually makes the finish worse. Heck, it may have been 1200. By the end of this post, it may be 1500 smooth.

I get a finish better than the pictures posted with a used bosch 2 wing straight bit in a 20 year old Ryobi trimmer with my lathe set on its fastest feed. That doesn't really mean anything. Obviously, the cue is oversized. But when you make such lofty claims about your machinery and tooling and precision and then your pictures reveal something 180 degrees in the other direction you will invite people to shoot at you, whether live ammo or not. Forgive me, but I think you are your own worse enemy.

Again, yeah, the cue is oversized. It makes no difference what the finish is now. It just...is...well...damn shocking to us all to see that quality of cut given what we have been told in the past. :eek: You ask too much of us. Difficult to comprehend such a dichotomy.
He may live on the fault line and never knows when a timmer is coming!!!
 
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