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12-25-2019, 03:16 PM

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Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
Hitting the same CB spot and varying only the stroke speed works great for controlling the distance of straight draw or follow.

For cut shots we can hit the same spot on the CB and vary only the stroke speed to control the carom angle, but that speed might not be what we need for the distance we want the CB to go. To get both right we need to control both variables. ...
An example of this is the wagon wheel drill when the cue ball is in a fixed location for all the shots. For most of the shots, there is only one combination of speed and tip contact that will send the cue ball to softly hit the current target ball:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-b42018ceoE


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12-25-2019, 05:10 PM

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Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
An example of this is the wagon wheel drill when the cue ball is in a fixed location for all the shots. For most of the shots, there is only one combination of speed and tip contact that will send the cue ball to softly hit the current target ball:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-b42018ceoE
Yes, and I think the principle applies broadly: there's only one speed/contact point combo for any specific carom angle/distance.

Fortunately it's not as complex as that might seem - since the speed of the shot is most often dictated by position demands, you just need to "guess" the tip position that works with that speed.

pj
chgo

Last edited by Patrick Johnson; 12-25-2019 at 05:19 PM.
  
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12-25-2019, 05:26 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
Hitting the same CB spot and varying only the stroke speed works great for controlling the distance of straight draw or follow.

For cut shots we can hit the same spot on the CB and vary only the stroke speed to control the carom angle, but that speed might not be what we need for the distance we want the CB to go. To get both right we need to control both variables.

Hope that's more clear...

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I'm getting closer to understanding but I'm not there yet. What do you mean by carom angle?
  
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12-25-2019, 06:45 PM

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Originally Posted by FranCrimi View Post
I'm getting closer to understanding but I'm not there yet. What do you mean by carom angle?
The direction the CB goes off the OB on a cut shot, controlled (as much as possible) by the amount of follow/draw and speed of the hit.

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12-26-2019, 01:38 PM

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Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
The direction the CB goes off the OB on a cut shot, controlled (as much as possible) by the amount of follow/draw and speed of the hit.

pj
chgo
I don't like that term (carom angle) for what you're describing. I had to ask you twice before I understood what you were referring to.
  
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12-26-2019, 01:51 PM

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Originally Posted by FranCrimi View Post
I don't like that term (carom angle) for what you're describing. I had to ask you twice before I understood what you were referring to.
I knew what he was talking about but I have played a lot of carom billiards. What term is clearer for the angle the cue ball takes off an object ball? I've tried to think of one but the best I could come up with was "cue ball deflection angle" and that invites confusion with a different kind of deflection.


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12-26-2019, 02:08 PM

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Originally Posted by FranCrimi View Post
I don't like that term (carom angle) for what you're describing.
OK. Out of curiosity, what does "carom angle" mean to you? What would you call what I described?

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12-26-2019, 03:19 PM

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Originally Posted by bbb View Post
Thanks for the link
16-1=15
40% of 15 =6
That’s how he gets 6 diamonds
Not -1 -1* the %of ball hit so -1*50% = 50% of 16 = 8. Or in this case 60% = 6

As I said it is about a 60% hit so 40% left after collision is about right.

That little * after the 1 was supposed to represent "times" or "multiplied by". It doesn't show up well I should have use X.

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12-26-2019, 04:08 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
An example of this is the wagon wheel drill when the cue ball is in a fixed location for all the shots. For most of the shots, there is only one combination of speed and tip contact that will send the cue ball to softly hit the current target ball:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-b42018ceoE
The caveat here is "send the cue ball softly". This is a drill with a stated goal, not a playing situation. In most playing situations there are many ways to do things and many types of position options. A constant speed instructor would plan out a run that matched their chosen game style. In a situation where the only logical choice was a soft hit they would hit softly. Their advice, however, would be to make those shots exceptions and try to stick to a medium stroke where possible, not hard, not soft.

There seems to be 3 schools of thought:
1. Constant speed vary ball hit position and or cut angle
2. Vary speed and try to use the same cut angle and or hit position
3. Vary any darn thing you need to get it done. I think this is what most do.

I do see some value in trying to hit most shots with a constant speed. A typical situation is a cut across the table to get position on a next ball which is closer to the rail. You can slow roll it and shoot the other ball back or go across and off the opposite rail and back and shoot it in the same pocket as the first. Some slow roll and some go across and back to keep the speed to match their constant speed stroke. My friend and I call this double the speed and double the rails, or just double the speed for short. Soft shots and holding the cue ball for the next shot can be tricky and if the table rolls off you can miss the shot. Good player, good table, no problem.

It isn't to say ALL SHOTS can be hit at one speed. But this style instruction says to use your standard stroke speed as often as possible and use top, bottom and the number of rails to get shape instead of hitting hard and soft.

Stop shots are a good example. You can hit harder or lower and time it out. A constant speed shooter would hit lower at their normal speed.

Tim White teaches a 16 Diamond basic stroke. Scott Lee helped me find my "natural stroke length". It turns out it is about 18 diamonds for me. I probably hit a little too hard and that is not a shock.

I am not promoting either, I am asking what others think.

Last edited by skipbales; 12-26-2019 at 04:11 PM.
  
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12-26-2019, 04:18 PM

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Originally Posted by goettlicher View Post
Both Tim White & Scott lee taught the same Speed Control method. I like it and use it every day I play.

randyg
Thanks Randy. You like it and use it. What percentage of your shots do you think get hit at this speed? Do you alter your patterns based on keeping that consistent stroke? You know, like instead of shooting ball x then ball y I will hit ball y then ball x? because it fits my stroke style the best?
  
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12-26-2019, 06:49 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
An example of this is the wagon wheel drill when the cue ball is in a fixed location for all the shots. For most of the shots, there is only one combination of speed and tip contact that will send the cue ball to softly hit the current target ball:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-b42018ceoE
Quote:
Originally Posted by skipbales View Post
The caveat here is "send the cue ball softly". This is a drill with a stated goal, not a playing situation. In most playing situations there are many ways to do things and many types of position options.
Yes, and in playing situations you choose your option and then try to control the direction and speed of the CB to achieve it - as described for the wagon wheel drill.

By the way, it doesn't say "send the cue ball softly"; it says "send the cue ball to softly hit the target", which requires both soft and hard hits in the drill.

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Last edited by Patrick Johnson; 12-26-2019 at 07:18 PM.
  
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12-27-2019, 01:56 AM

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Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
Yes, and in playing situations you choose your option and then try to control the direction and speed of the CB to achieve it - as described for the wagon wheel drill.

By the way, it doesn't say "send the cue ball softly"; it says "send the cue ball to softly hit the target", which requires both soft and hard hits in the drill.

pj
chgo
So to go back to the subject. I assume you are saying you vary the speed and don't make any attempt to use a constant speed?

The problem with this forum is every topic quickly evolves into someone being right and someone else being wrong. I simply asked who taught or was taught to try to use a constant speed. I am not looking to prove it is a good or bad way to play. I am just curious to see who thinks it has merit.
  
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12-27-2019, 08:33 AM

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Originally Posted by skipbales View Post
Thanks Randy. You like it and use it. What percentage of your shots do you think get hit at this speed? Do you alter your patterns based on keeping that consistent stroke? You know, like instead of shooting ball x then ball y I will hit ball y then ball x? because it fits my stroke style the best?
skipbales:
I use "stroke speed" at least 60% of my shots.

Speed control is not used for pocketing balls as much
as getting the cue ball into position.

I have to alter my speed often. The shot and it's next position
will dictate the speed of the shot.

All SPF Instructors teach the same form of speed control. It's
one of our Mother Drills!

Tim White and Scott Lee are just a few of the 100's of SPF Instructors.

Another great post.
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12-27-2019, 09:43 AM

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Originally Posted by skipbales View Post
The problem with this forum is every topic quickly evolves into someone being right and someone else being wrong.
You mean like this?
Quote:
Originally Posted by skipbales View Post
The caveat here is "send the cue ball softly". This is a drill with a stated goal, not a playing situation.
Or is it only an argument when somebody else does it?

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12-27-2019, 10:26 AM

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Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
I knew what he was talking about but I have played a lot of carom billiards. What term is clearer for the angle the cue ball takes off an object ball? I've tried to think of one but the best I could come up with was "cue ball deflection angle" and that invites confusion with a different kind of deflection.
I don't think there is a more precise term than "carom angle" to describe the angle the cb takes when it caroms off the ob. Maybe "contact path"?? Anyhow, I haven't played a lot of carom billiards, but everyone knows what carom means, so the term "carom angle" isn't too ambiguous.


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