APA screwed our very own sleinen out of a national championship

Eric. · Aug 22, 2019

ShootingArts said:
I see some questioning Sean's integrity again so I will say again it is of the highest. The occasional high run happens, in straight pool or snooker. I was stopped three balls short of a perfect snooker run when the ball hit the bottom of the pocket and came back out. If Sean tells me a rooster can tote a bale of cotton I'll be looking for a place for the rooster to put it down!

Hu

It's common for things to get questioned, especially if something sounds out of line. It doesn't have to be viewed as some kind of attack. Regarding my post about someone stating that Sean was a 100 ball runner, that doesn't line up with my expectations of a non sandbagging APA SL6 and a FargoRate 534 (unestablished).

If things that sounded out of line weren't questioned, they wouldve never sent out the Nina, Pinta and Santa Maria...

Eric

Tony_in_MD · Aug 22, 2019

I watched the a masters team from Colorado, their last player a 593 Fargo played an almost perfect match.

He was up 2-1 in 8ball, when his opponent broke dry, and ran out the set in a race to 7.

Granted, it was on the APA bar tables, and the person has a robustness of 274, but I don't think his Fargorate lined up with the level of play I observed. He had some tough outs was consistently getting the cueball into tight 2-3 inch windows.

floppybear · Aug 22, 2019

I remember playing in the APA... we won the qualifiers for Las Vegas, but I heard other teams were jealous and accused us of cheating. When I received my trophy...I broke it into pieces (along with the patches) and threw it in the trash in front of everyone. Told everyone F' the APA...that was about 20 years ago...never played APA since.

DecentShot · Aug 22, 2019

Tony_in_MD said:
I watched the a masters team from Colorado, their last player a 593 Fargo played an almost perfect match.

He was up 2-1 in 8ball, when his opponent broke dry, and ran out the set in a race to 7.

Granted, it was on the APA bar tables, and the person has a robustness of 274, but I don't think his Fargorate lined up with the level of play I observed. He had some tough outs was consistently getting the cueball into tight 2-3 inch windows.

Can painfully generous equipment give a 40-60 fargo points illusion? Probably. His Fargo could be based off of 9 foot equipment or a much tougher bar table.

Tony_in_MD · Aug 22, 2019

Possibly. My point in all of this is we don't know what is right for him, or Sean's team. All we can do is watch the matches ourselves and make our own conclusions.

Of course the APA making the statement that "we don't think you cheated" speaks volumes to me.

I was there in person, and watched a few matches I missed on FB since I was traveling, and in my opinion, they got hosed.

I just feel for the next group that can fall into this trap.

DecentShot said:
Can painfully generous equipment give a 40-60 fargo points illusion? Probably. His Fargo could be based off of 9 foot equipment or a much tougher bar table.

ShootingArts · Aug 22, 2019

I take it you didn't major in history or geology

Eric. said:
It's common for things to get questioned, especially if something sounds out of line. It doesn't have to be viewed as some kind of attack. Regarding my post about someone stating that Sean was a 100 ball runner, that doesn't line up with my expectations of a non sandbagging APA SL6 and a FargoRate 534 (unestablished).

If things that sounded out of line weren't questioned, they wouldve never sent out the Nina, Pinta and Santa Maria...

Eric

Eric,

Your last line is hilarious! Something hugely out of line not being questioned by the Spanish throne is how Columbus's voyage came to be. Columbus was seeking India. He never actually reached even the North American mainland. It was common knowledge among mariners that the world was round and most knew roughly how big it was. Columbus grossly underestimated the size of the world, best I recall he thought it was about one-third the size it is. The reason the people he first tried to get to back him turned him down, including the heavily seafaring nation of Portugal, was that they knew he was full of chit!

I would go on to the main point but there is no need. Sean is far more of a gentleman than I am and I will let him handle it if he chooses to.

Hu

Cory in DC · Aug 22, 2019

Bob Jewett said:
In my view it is on the APA. There are other systems that are much more expensive to sandbag. Counting innings promotes sandbagging.

It is unlikely that the APA will adopt FargoRate since it is the property of a competing organization, but I think it would go a long way towards fixing the rating problems in the APA.

Probably won't happen, but this is what license agreements are for! Or with enough time, a FargoRate-based league could displace APA?

mchnhed · Aug 22, 2019

Cory in DC said:
.....with enough time, a FargoRate-based league could displace APA?

Hire this guy to do it!

Eric. · Aug 22, 2019

ShootingArts said:
Eric,

Your last line is hilarious! Something hugely out of line not being questioned by the Spanish throne is how Columbus's voyage came to be. Columbus was seeking India. He never actually reached even the North American mainland. It was common knowledge among mariners that the world was round and most knew roughly how big it was. Columbus grossly underestimated the size of the world, best I recall he thought it was about one-third the size it is. The reason the people he first tried to get to back him turned him down, including the heavily seafaring nation of Portugal, was that they knew he was full of chit!

I would go on to the main point but there is no need. Sean is far more of a gentleman than I am and I will let him handle it if he chooses to.

Hu

Hu,

The line I said was meant to be a bit of a light hearted joke. You dont get out much?

Eric

jrctherake · Aug 22, 2019

Bob Jewett said:
Handicapping is as old as pool itself. One of the oldest billiard books in English (Enoch White's "A Practical Treatise on the Game of Billiards", 1807) has pages and pages of the correct betting odds like when someone is getting five points in a race to 12 and the score is 6-all, the better player is a 5-2 favorite.

If you mean who developed the particular system that the APA uses, that would be the co-founders of the APA, Larry Hubbart and Terry Bell.

Thanks for the info Bob.

I was asking about the APA system. IMO, it sucks a55.

I'm not sure if there is a better way to do it or not but, what I do know is if they can't beat that, they should just remove all handicapping and let the chips fall where they may.

I had rather play the #1 player on the planet even, as to give someone 6/3 just because they refuse to do what it takes to get there.

I know lots don't agree with that but, thats why I don't and won't play league.

It seems to me, they are trying to always find an angle instead of stepping up and stepping out.

Anyways, thanks for the info sir.

Have a good one,

Jeff

evergruven · Aug 23, 2019

jrctherake said:
Thanks for the info Bob.

I was asking about the APA system. IMO, it sucks a55.

I'm not sure if there is a better way to do it or not but, what I do know is if they can't beat that, they should just remove all handicapping and let the chips fall where they may.

I had rather play the #1 player on the planet even, as to give someone 6/3 just because they refuse to do what it takes to get there.

I know lots don't agree with that but, thats why I don't and won't play league.

It seems to me, they are trying to always find an angle instead of stepping up and stepping out.

Anyways, thanks for the info sir.

Have a good one,

Jeff

hey jeff,
first I gotta say I was actually just thinking recently, "where are all the rake posts at?"
have you been mia or is it just my imagination?

second- personally, I'm not much for handicapping..I'd rather get my brains bashed in and learn something from it
(I know, you're thinking, how can you learn with bashed brains? well, you get used to it

).
I can see value in handicapping, especially for betting types-
it's just a spice on the cue rack that doesn't jive with my tastebuds.

this said, I've done a few bca leagues and they didn't handicap.
sometimes I got smoked, sometimes I did the smokin', but I had a good time overall, and met some nice folks in the process.
one of the (many) things I like about pool is that you gotta be a one-person team out there, no room for a crowd..
but if I did a league again, I would be happy to do bca.

JazzyJeff87 · Aug 23, 2019

Cory in DC said:
Probably won't happen, but this is what license agreements are for! Or with enough time, a FargoRate-based league could displace APA?

This is where I'm at with the whole thing.

The apa is the largest league here and they have a system that really doesn't work. They should step up and fix it or step away. Maybe I'll start a campaign

trob · Aug 23, 2019

JazzyJeff87 said:
This is where I'm at with the whole thing.

The apa is the largest league here and they have a system that really doesn't work. They should step up and fix it or step away. Maybe I'll start a campaign

Their system works fine.. If your looking for anything from government to marriage to a pool league to be perfect your in for a lifetime of disappointment

justnum · Aug 23, 2019

With all the users on AZBilliards making a custom AZBilliards tournament should be interesting.

If it was an AZBilliards tournament and AZ users supported it there may be enough vendors and players to make it worth everyone's time.

AZbilliards national championship could follow the old IPT qualifying format. And for those that don't make it, can enjoy minigames or shop for the newest aiming system, billiards gear and have actual convention style meetings to discuss the future of amateur pool.

KissedOut · Aug 23, 2019

JazzyJeff87 said:
This is where I'm at with the whole thing.

The apa is the largest league here and they have a system that really doesn't work. They should step up and fix it or step away. Maybe I'll start a campaign

If it is so terrible, ya have to wonder why it is the biggest.

justnum · Aug 23, 2019

KissedOut said:
If it is so terrible, ya have to wonder why it is the biggest.

Quantity does not imply quality.

Runnintable · Aug 23, 2019

Popular does not mean better

KissedOut said:
If it is so terrible, ya have to wonder why it is the biggest.

Pop Music is mostly garbage but the masses love it.
APA has modeled a league for a large 'pool' of people (pun intended), and they are successful at it.

The better players in my region do not play APA, but they have other options.

Bob Jewett · Aug 23, 2019

KissedOut said:
If it is so terrible, ya have to wonder why it is the biggest.

That's an excellent question. The "23 rule" is likely a large part of the reason it expands in the areas where it is successful. The rule turns all the players into recruiters. The rule also has consequences that some consider bad.

Another factor is that the fee structure brings a lot of money to the national office that can be used for promotion and to the LOs. Since the amount the LOs get is proportional to how many teams are playing, they have a strong incentive to recruit and promote. Also, they are given exclusive rights within an area.

I think all that is separate from the particular handicap system they use. I think one very attractive (to some players) feature of the APA's Equalizer™ system is that the players can see that it is possible to "improve" or "maintain" their SL by simple bookkeeping techniques. If you take that approach, the system is beautiful rather than an outrage and travesty.

us820 · Aug 23, 2019

KissedOut said:
If it is so terrible, ya have to wonder why it is the biggest.

It’s the biggest because they spot terrible players so much.
I just eatched a finals match where the “winner” needed to make 4 balls...4 balls to be a “world champion”.

DelawareDogs · Aug 23, 2019

us820 said:
It’s the biggest because they spot terrible players so much.
I just eatched a finals match where the “winner” needed to make 4 balls...4 balls to be a “world champion”.

Dang......... no words but, dang.

Edit: on the other side of the coin, I can remember when I went to state finals about 5-6 years ago. Up in Columbus, GA {wasn't APA}.

The two teams in the finals of the team event played very well. They were so evenly matched, that every player had to play their hardest. We must've seen 4-5 break and runs in a row, followed by wicked safeties, followed by some tremendous outs even for pro standards.

The good 'ole days.....

APA screwed our very own sleinen out of a national championship

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