No, Most people do not want to play pool on big pockets.

For players and not home recreational bangers: Pro Cut Pockets or Buckets?

  • Total voters
    167
trentfromtoledo

trentfromtoledo

8onthebreaktoledo
Silver Member
jeephawk said:
It probably is, but I'm still calling "foul" on the title and conclusion regarding "most" players or people - still think it's most really, really good players? ;-)

I'm guessing the poll is a little skewed because of the high quality of players on the forum (which I am definitely not)?

Anyway, enjoying the discussion and watching the Cup has me appreciating the value of a little tougher table, but I'll leave it to those who know more to opine about how tough it is or isn't.
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I already addressed your concerns about the title being biased. I only worded it that way because I knew what the results would be. It showed most people who are players, prefer the tighter tables. It even would be more in favor of tight pockets, but, some people voted for buckets just to try to skew it.

No one said one word about how "good" of a player. This is the definition of player to me: Someone who loves the game and actively follows it. I respect all players at any skill level that love the game.



PoolBoy1 said:
Your going to find larger pockets across the US win the day. A poll on AZ or similar type site will naturally want smaller pockets. I'd like to see some #'s from manufacturers on what they are selling retail.
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Thanks for your post, but, did you read the question at all??:eek: Here it is:

"FOR PLAYERS AND NOT HOME RECREATIONAL BANGERS: PRO CUT POCKETS OR BUCKETS?"

People who just have a table in their home for looks could care less about any measurements other than the amount of space it took to have it in their home.

Trent from Toledo
 
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jeephawk

jeephawk

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
trentfromtoledo said:
I already addressed your concerns about the title being biased. I only worded it that way because I knew what the results would be. It showed most people who are players, prefer the tighter tables. It even would be more in favor of tight pockets, but, some people voted for buckets just to try to skew it.
Trent from Toledo
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Just a comment, like I said I enjoyed and am enjoying the discussion.
 
H

Hits 'em Hard

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
BC21 said:
Very true. Once the ball is passed the pocket opening, facing angle and shelf depth come into play. But the tighter the opening of the pocket is, the more accurate you have to be at shooting the ob into it if you expect a nice clean shot. Shelf and facing angle make no difference if the ball misses the opening by a quarter inch.
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You miss the point. If a pocket is made progressively smaller to the point where a ball shot down the rail hangs up rather than falling, is the pocket too tight or is the shelf of the pocket too deep? At what point do we realize that the need for 10’ tables in pro competition trumps the need for tighter pockets?
 
realkingcobra

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
Hits 'em Hard said:
You miss the point. If a pocket is made progressively smaller to the point where a ball shot down the rail hangs up rather than falling, is the pocket too tight or is the shelf of the pocket too deep? At what point do we realize that the need for 10’ tables in pro competition trumps the need for tighter pockets?
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How about changing the game to be harder, rather than trying to change the pool tables. Longer races instead of short sprints would be a major change for one.
 
realkingcobra

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
Hits 'em Hard said:
You miss the point. If a pocket is made progressively smaller to the point where a ball shot down the rail hangs up rather than falling, is the pocket too tight or is the shelf of the pocket too deep? At what point do we realize that the need for 10’ tables in pro competition trumps the need for tighter pockets?
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Pool needs to inspire the game to be played, not discourage anyone from playing.
 
mchnhed

mchnhed

I Came, I Shot, I Choked
Silver Member
realkingcobra said:
Pool needs to inspire the game to be played, not discourage anyone from playing.
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Hits 'em Hard said:
So a standard cut pocket, 5” opening with a deep shelf on a 10’ will cause people to go away?
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No...it would make great game playing but......

Room owners can not cut back on total table numbers to make room for ten foot tables.

And yes.....I think a lot of non-players would be intimidated by a ten foot table.
 
BC21

BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
Gold Member
Silver Member
Hits 'em Hard said:
You miss the point. If a pocket is made progressively smaller to the point where a ball shot down the rail hangs up rather than falling, is the pocket too tight or is the shelf of the pocket too deep? At what point do we realize that the need for 10’ tables in pro competition trumps the need for tighter pockets?
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I understand your point. If the ball enters the pocket and hangs up, it'd be due to a combination of larger than normal facing angles and deep shelves, not the actual pocketing opening.

I was comparing the margin of error for hitting the pocket opening on different tables, for actually getting the ball into the pocket, which has nothing to do with how tough the pocket plays beyond the opening, where shelf depth and facing anglw are the determining factors for whether or not the ball drops off the slate.
 
H

Hits 'em Hard

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
BC21 said:
I understand your point. If the ball enters the pocket and hangs up, it'd be due to a combination of larger than normal facing angles and deep shelves, not the actual pocketing opening.

I was comparing the margin of error for hitting the pocket opening on different tables, for actually getting the ball into the pocket, which has nothing to do with how tough the pocket plays beyond the opening, where shelf depth and facing anglw are the determining factors for whether or not the ball drops off the slate.
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If a ball hits 100% inside the points of the pocket, and it’s getting hung up and not falling, that is a problem. No ball that can clear the points should ever hang up. But they do. Pocket facings, angle of pocket opening, age of cloth and shelf depth all play a much bigger role in determining how tight a pocket really is than just how wide the pocket is. Trent started this whole argument without having breakfast and led us to this point.

We could be playing pool on 4” pockets for the last 50 years of people would have pulled their head out of their ass back then. But no one wants to take the time and figure out how to make a tight pocket properly.
 
realkingcobra

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
Hits 'em Hard said:
If a ball hits 100% inside the points of the pocket, and it’s getting hung up and not falling, that is a problem. No ball that can clear the points should ever hang up. But they do. Pocket facings, angle of pocket opening, age of cloth and shelf depth all play a much bigger role in determining how tight a pocket really is than just how wide the pocket is. Trent started this whole argument without having breakfast and led us to this point.

We could be playing pool on 4” pockets for the last 50 years of people would have pulled their head out of their ass back then. But no one wants to take the time and figure out how to make a tight pocket properly.
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If pool tables were only available with 4" corner pockets 50 years ago, pool would have died 49 years ago. All of you seem to fail to understand the POOL PLAYERS don't support the sale of pool tables from the manufacturers, those HOME owners do as they ARE the buying audience for about 95% of all pool tables sold world wide! Without THEIR money, you don't have a game of pool to play!!!
 
BC21

BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
Gold Member
Silver Member
realkingcobra said:
If pool tables were only available with 4" corner pockets 50 years ago, pool would have died 49 years ago. All of you seem to fail to understand the POOL PLAYERS don't support the sale of pool tables from the manufacturers, those HOME owners do as they ARE the buying audience for about 95% of all pool tables sold world wide! Without THEIR money, you don't have a game of pool to play!!!
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Exactly! And many home owners that purchase pool tables have no clue about the pockets.
 
mchnhed

mchnhed

I Came, I Shot, I Choked
Silver Member
Hits 'em Hard said:
Maybe it’s those rec players that have driven away the true players of the game in America.
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Just the opposite......

Gambling and Hustlers gave the game a bad reputation and now the Puritans make it hard to open pool halls.

Ball Banging Rec Players are what bring in the money, so that “real players” can have a place to play.
 
BC21

BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
Gold Member
Silver Member
Hits 'em Hard said:
If a ball hits 100% inside the points of the pocket, and it’s getting hung up and not falling, that is a problem. No ball that can clear the points should ever hang up. But they do. Pocket facings, angle of pocket opening, age of cloth and shelf depth all play a much bigger role in determining how tight a pocket really is than just how wide the pocket is. Trent started this whole argument without having breakfast and led us to this point.

We could be playing pool on 4” pockets for the last 50 years of people would have pulled their head out of their ass back then. But no one wants to take the time and figure out how to make a tight pocket properly.
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Yep, ignoring cloth and facings condition, there are three factors that determine the tightness of a pocket -- shelf length, facing angles, and mouth opening. Deeper shelf, wider facing angles, and smaller opening at the mouth can all three make a table play tougher. A pocket with typical 140° facings and a 2" shelf plays (imo) with a 4.5" opening. Change the mouth to 6" and most players would never miss or rattle a ball. Shim the mouth to 4" and more balls will hang up in the pocket or barely miss and rattle or bounce out.

If you kept the 4.5" opening but made the shelf depth only 1", the pocket would accept a lot of shots that would simply hang up on a 2" shelf. Or if you opened the throat by making the facing angles 130° instead of 140°, no balls would hang up on that 2" shelf. Getting the right combination of pocket opening, facing angle, and shelf depth is key. For me, pro cut Diamond tables have that. But it's a matter of what of whatever the table owner likes or wants. And as realkingcobra mentioned, many tables are sold to people that aren't players and wouldn't the difference between tight pockets or loose pockets.
 
realkingcobra

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
BC21 said:
Yep, ignoring cloth and facings condition, there are three factors that determine the tightness of a pocket -- shelf length, facing angles, and mouth opening. Deeper shelf, wider facing angles, and smaller opening at the mouth can all three make a table play tougher. A pocket with typical 140° facings and a 2" shelf plays (imo) with a 4.5" opening. Change the mouth to 6" and most players would never miss or rattle a ball. Shim the mouth to 4" and more balls will hang up in the pocket or barely miss and rattle or bounce out.

If you kept the 4.5" opening but made the shelf depth only 1", the pocket would accept a lot of shots that would simply hang up on a 2" shelf. Or if you opened the throat by making the facing angles 130° instead of 140°, no balls would hang up on that 2" shelf. Getting the right combination of pocket opening, facing angle, and shelf depth is key. For me, pro cut Diamond tables have that. But it's a matter of what of whatever the table owner likes or wants. And as realkingcobra mentioned, many tables are sold to people that aren't players and wouldn't the difference between tight pockets or loose pockets.
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There's a 4th factor too, and that's the cloth, and it's a huge factor as it gets worn. Bigger pockets also expose more slate shelf, providing more room in the pocket for balls to find a place to sit!!! Stock 5" GC pockets will hide 60% of the ball just like Diamonds 4 1/2" deep shelf pocket does....so consider that as well.
 
trentfromtoledo

trentfromtoledo

8onthebreaktoledo
Silver Member
Hits 'em Hard said:
And yet you wanna push for tighter pockets? Also, maybe it’s those rec players that have driven away the true players of the game in America.
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I am not pushing for it, Pro Cut pockets are already here. 10' tables take up more space.

Actually rec players spend more than anyone in the pool halls.

Trent from Toledo
 
realkingcobra

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
trentfromtoledo said:
I am not pushing for it, Pro Cut pockets are already here. 10' tables take up more space.

Actually rec players spend more than anyone in the pool halls.

Trent from Toledo
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So then, what does a pole that is biased tell you about the 95% of tables sold with bigger pockets? That the world don't care about the PLAYERS?
 
trentfromtoledo

trentfromtoledo

8onthebreaktoledo
Silver Member
realkingcobra said:
So then, what does a pole that is biased tell you about the 95% of tables sold with bigger pockets? That the world don't care about the PLAYERS?
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It tells me an answer: Players prefer Pro Cut pockets. I dont care about speculating this or that. No one was talking about rec players.
You are side tracking the conversation to try to be right about something.
Who gives a $$h1T????
Why are we even talking about this anymore??
I could make a TON more money working in the rec player market and simply have no interest in that or talking about rec players or rec tables.


Trent
 
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