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07-07-2019, 02:35 PM

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Originally Posted by DynoDan View Post
While is might appear there would be little ethical difference between situations where your opponent (acting as referee) calls an unjustified foul against you, vs. your denying a foul that you DID commit, the latter is much worse since the result is that ‘unrefereed’ matches are now apparently (?) just that in reality. Can you imagine if the pro sports teams suddenly decided to eliminate all umpires/referees merely in order to save the cost of their salaries? Fans would likely be appalled at the turmoil that would create. Why this issue should now be an exception for pool is beyond me.
This is not really a thread about pro pool, but about ordinary every day straight pool situations. Although there is usually an area referee in major pro events, a referee assigned to a single match is quite rare at all levels of play in all of pool's disciplines. Even at the US Open 9-ball in April, there was an area referee for the first 488 matches, and a referee assigned to the final table for the last 15 matches.

This thread considers some of the ethical issues that can arise from how things work in our sport, given that the cost of having one referee per match in pool is prohibitive ..... sad but true.
  
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07-07-2019, 03:11 PM

It certainly is not frowned upon in 14.1 if played properly, this is a great part of the game....Sometimes you have to give a bunch of inches to gain some yards.

Steve


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07-08-2019, 03:07 PM

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Originally Posted by evergruven View Post
obviously it could be a strategic move to run into the pack and not hit a rail,
but is that ever considered poor form? what about other fouls?
A point not discussed (though likely now irrelevant, considering the ‘no holds barred/unrefereed’ direction the game is apparently taking), is the traditional regulation of what form an intentional foul shot might legally take. Many years ago, I would merely tap the top of the CB with my ferrel, not realizing then that I was likely guilty of ‘unsportsmanlike conduct”, since the official rules dictated that you must ‘stroke’ the shot,
  
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07-09-2019, 06:49 AM

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Originally Posted by stevekur1 View Post
It certainly is not frowned upon in 14.1 if played properly, this is a great part of the game....Sometimes you have to give a bunch of inches to gain some yards.

Steve
Yes, but it's a largely lost art at the pro levels of the game, save those players over 50 years old. Even in the BCA US Open 14.1 in 2000, when Bob Jewett and I sat next to each other in the stands, we were both shocked at how much of the tactical knowledge of the game had disappeared.

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07-09-2019, 09:16 AM

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Originally Posted by sjm View Post
Yes, but it's a largely lost art at the pro levels of the game, save those players over 50 years old. Even in the BCA US Open 14.1 in 2000, when Bob Jewett and I sat next to each other in the stands, we were both shocked at how much of the tactical knowledge of the game had disappeared.
Speaking of which, in my league playoffs semifinal, my opponent played safe on a 14-ball rack from the kitchen by playing onto the two head balls intending to get a back corner ball to the cushion and leave the cue ball frozen on the top of the rack. In ye olde days none of the top players ever played that shot. They would go two rails to the back of the rack for a soft foul if they had to, but they would never play a shot on 14 "solid" balls for any kind of legal safe from the kitchen.

My opponent was surprised when his shot did not get a ball to the cushion. He was mad when I saw the three-ball combination that I could shoot from my nearly frozen position at the top of the rack. Suddenly I was the bad guy for not having frozen all the balls in the rack -- which he did not bother to check. With five-year-old balls, getting them all to freeze would have been a challenge. Further, I imagine that shooting from the head spot to the top of a perfect rack will not get a very good safety. I have to imagine because I have never actually tried it.

As Stu mentioned, we were perplexed by some of the safety plays at the 2000 US Open 14.1. I even wrote a column about it. See the July 2000 column in http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/2000.pdf . Ned Polsky was also perplexed.


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07-09-2019, 12:28 PM

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Originally Posted by sjm View Post
Yes, but it's a largely lost art at the pro levels of the game, save those players over 50 years old. Even in the BCA US Open 14.1 in 2000, when Bob Jewett and I sat next to each other in the stands, we were both shocked at how much of the tactical knowledge of the game had disappeared.
I Can see that. 14.1 today is mostly offense on a pro level. played more wide open like rotation games.


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07-09-2019, 12:50 PM

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Originally Posted by stevekur1 View Post
I Can see that. 14.1 today is mostly offense on a pro level. played more wide open like rotation games.
Not my point. It was mostly offense back in the day, too. The old-timers knew all the tricks to beating an opponent to the shot, and few among today's crop of pros have this tactical knowledge.

I'm comparing knowledge here, not style.
  
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07-09-2019, 08:38 PM

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Originally Posted by evergruven View Post
thank y'all for the replies.



hi stu, thanks for the shout back. I want to make sure I understand you..
so the balls weren't frozen, but the other player acted as if they were?
can you please explain more about the rule and why this was advantageous to them?
The double hit foul is likely the one foul resulting in the most controversies among players for smaller local weekly tournaments, consisting of many recreational B, C, and D players. As simple as it is, a number of players, even those that have been playing pool most of their lives and consider themselves as pool players, still don't understand this foul and feel like they are getting robbed when I (as TD) am called to the table to judge a shot in which the cue ball is very close to the object ball, and I call them for an obvious double hit foul. It is their responsibility to do their homework and learn what constitutes a double hit foul being committed rather than me having to delay the game in progress to have to explain to them why I called it.
  
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07-10-2019, 08:22 AM

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Originally Posted by ChrisinNC View Post
The double hit foul is likely the one foul resulting in the most controversies among players for smaller local weekly tournaments, consisting of many recreational B, C, and D players. As simple as it is, a number of players, even those that have been playing pool most of their lives and consider themselves as pool players, still don't understand this foul and feel like they are getting robbed when I (as TD) am called to the table to judge a shot in which the cue ball is very close to the object ball, and I call them for an obvious double hit foul. It is their responsibility to do their homework and learn what constitutes a double hit foul being committed rather than me having to delay the game in progress to have to explain to them why I called it.
Agreed, Chris. This rule is often discussed at pro level in the players meetings that precede tournaments. Expecting league players to study the rules, however, probably isn't realistic. I think that at league level, the best you can do is go over the rule in the meeting that precedes the first night of league play and, after answering questions regarding the rule, advise the players that the rule will be enforced.
  
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07-10-2019, 01:28 PM

I was under the impression from previous forum discussions that, much like the current direction official rules are taking (non-refereed fouls unenforceable if shooter objects), the amateur/league requirement for avoiding a double-hit foul is gradually becoming: to merely jack-up 45 degrees, regardless of the CB/OB distance (?). Makes you wonder which venerable playing rule will be next to go away just to avoid conflict.
  
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07-11-2019, 07:50 PM

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Originally Posted by DynoDan View Post
I was under the impression from previous forum discussions that, much like the current direction official rules are taking (non-refereed fouls unenforceable if shooter objects), the amateur/league requirement for avoiding a double-hit foul is gradually becoming: to merely jack-up 45 degrees, regardless of the CB/OB distance (?). Makes you wonder which venerable playing rule will be next to go away just to avoid conflict.
Interesting post, Dan. No area in the rules leads to more confusion than the double hit.

Another rule that makes me crazy is all ball fouls. I recall Van Boening playing safe with the bridge on a 1-ball at the US Open trailing Deuel, if memory serves, 10-9 in the 2017 US Open 9-ball in a race to eleven. The object ball was several feet away and as he lined up for the safe, he grazed a ball that was way below the cue ball, moving it almost imperceptibly, for a foul. It had absolutely no effect on the position or the difficulty of the shot Shane was about to attempt, but the foul cost Shane any chance to win that match.

This should not be confused with what happened with Wu Jiaqing in the 2019 US Open final against Josh Filler, where, trailing 12-10 in the race to thirteen, he nudged an object ball over which he was bridging, and lost the match about 90 seconds later. This clearly raises major issues and was properly penalized.

I was taught many moons ago, when I first learned the rules, that even when not playing all ball fouls, there are some object ball infractions that must always constitute a foul, and the three most common were a) moving a ball over which one was bridging, b) moving a ball around which one is masseing, and c) moving a ball over which one is jumping. If these are enforced, it covers most of the object ball infractions that I feel ought to be penalized.

As it exists today, I think the all ball foul rules can randomize results in our game in a way that doesn't sit well with me. Many of the purists swear by all ball fouls, but it has never sat well with me.

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07-12-2019, 01:06 PM

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Another rule that makes me crazy is all ball fouls.....Many of the purists swear by all ball fouls, but it has never sat well with me.
The simple reality is: ‘all ball fouls’ was not a major problem for Mosconi & his contemporaries. The modern/universal ‘CB fouls only’ standard has made us all irretrievably careless, and likely, incapable of competing with those who may have never casually acceded merely to go along.
P.S. My greatest failing is not so much fouling while setting up the shot. It’s the failure to retract my bridge hand or cue soon enough after the stroke. Much like how position suffers when the shot is ultra-difficult, when so much attention is required to avoid fouling while bridging, the relief after you accomplish a successful stroke under that kind of pressure sort of forces your guard down.
  
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07-12-2019, 03:30 PM

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The simple reality is: ‘all ball fouls’ was not a major problem for Mosconi & his contemporaries. The modern/universal ‘CB fouls only’ standard has made us all irretrievably careless, and likely, incapable of competing with those who may have never casually acceded merely to go along.
P.S. My greatest failing is not so much fouling while setting up the shot. It’s the failure to retract my bridge hand or cue soon enough after the stroke. Much like how position suffers when the shot is ultra-difficult, when so much attention is required to avoid fouling while bridging, the relief after you accomplish a successful stroke under that kind of pressure sort of forces your guard down.
I can see a few advantages of all ball fouls, but in my own experience, all ball fouls causes a few too many silly results.

Once upon a time in golf, if you accidentally knocked the golf ball off a tee, even if it was not in attempt to play a shot, it counted as a shot. It was eventually recognized that the rule was a bit silly as it randomized results and got in the way of what seemed fair. Now, if you accidentally knock the golf ball from the tee, it doesn't count and you are allowed to tee up again. To me, when Van Boening nudged a ball as I described in the 2017 US Open 9-ball, it was the equivalent of knocking a golf ball off a tee.

I also recall that Jimmy Burke, perhaps around 1982, a time when one was required to dress formally for the World 14.1 Championships, had his bow tie fall off and when it landed on an object ball without moving it, he was out of luck.

Some "all ball foul" fouls are just ridiculous.
  
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07-13-2019, 01:45 PM

I guess Jimmie should have bought a real bow tie (though I must admit I’ve never worn one....is it like tying your shoelace?). There have been some arbitrary regulations over the years forced on players that I didn’t agree with: I remember when the women had to play wearing skirts (can you imagine concentrating on a tough shot in front of a large audience, while stretched out over a 9 or 10 foot table with your underwear showing?). But, though they might not look so glamorous with their long hair tied up, they otherwise risk fouling should it touch a ball.
Once traditional rules are abandoned for the sake of convenience, the inevitable ‘slippery slope’ sets the game’s image sliding downhill. What we get then is (for example), things like: ‘the jump cue’. A venerable game of incredible finesse reduced to sideshow exhibitionism.
Or, the gradual toleration of more casual dress codes, which has led nowadays to commonly facing opponents who’s slovenly attire would shame the average homeless street bum.
Once ‘all fouls’ & the ‘double hit’ rule become obsolete, I have to wonder what the next exception to the game’s traditional character might portend?
  
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07-13-2019, 03:49 PM

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Originally Posted by sjm View Post
I can see a few advantages of all ball fouls, but in my own experience, all ball fouls causes a few too many silly results.

Once upon a time in golf, if you accidentally knocked the golf ball off a tee, even if it was not in attempt to play a shot, it counted as a shot. It was eventually recognized that the rule was a bit silly as it randomized results and got in the way of what seemed fair. Now, if you accidentally knock the golf ball from the tee, it doesn't count and you are allowed to tee up again. To me, when Van Boening nudged a ball as I described in the 2017 US Open 9-ball, it was the equivalent of knocking a golf ball off a tee.

I also recall that Jimmy Burke, perhaps around 1982, a time when one was required to dress formally for the World 14.1 Championships, had his bow tie fall off and when it landed on an object ball without moving it, he was out of luck.

Some "all ball foul" fouls are just ridiculous.
Snooker players seem to deal with it just fine, and it's used in Europe for every tournament of note. The occational mishap does occur, but it's fairly uncommon. You just get used to double checking stuff before you carelessly dive in.
  
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