Go Back   AzBilliards.com > Main Category > Main Forum
Reload this Page another deflection thread
Reply
Page 4 of 6 « First 234 56
 
Share Thread Tools Rate Thread
Old
  (#46)
Patrick Johnson
Fish of the Day
Patrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond repute
 
Patrick Johnson's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 20,175
vCash: 1700
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Jun 2007
   
09-17-2019, 04:07 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by softshot View Post
Squirt is useful...
Does squirt do more than change the CB's direction? Couldn't that be done more easily and accurately with a squirtless cue just by changing aim?

pj
chgo
  
Reply With Quote

Old
  (#47)
KMRUNOUT
AzB Silver Member
KMRUNOUT has a reputation beyond reputeKMRUNOUT has a reputation beyond reputeKMRUNOUT has a reputation beyond reputeKMRUNOUT has a reputation beyond reputeKMRUNOUT has a reputation beyond reputeKMRUNOUT has a reputation beyond reputeKMRUNOUT has a reputation beyond reputeKMRUNOUT has a reputation beyond reputeKMRUNOUT has a reputation beyond reputeKMRUNOUT has a reputation beyond reputeKMRUNOUT has a reputation beyond repute
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 3,812
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Mar 2006
   
09-17-2019, 05:34 PM

There are some pretty poor arguments being made in this thread. Also, Iím really surprised people are not taking skill level into account. The difference between a 650 Fargo player and a 700 player are *very* small. A tiny tiny benefit for a 650 level player means far more than that same tiny benefit for a 450 level player.

KMRUNOUT


Sent from my iPhone using AzBilliards Forums
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#48)
softshot
Simplify
softshot has a reputation beyond reputesoftshot has a reputation beyond reputesoftshot has a reputation beyond reputesoftshot has a reputation beyond reputesoftshot has a reputation beyond reputesoftshot has a reputation beyond reputesoftshot has a reputation beyond reputesoftshot has a reputation beyond reputesoftshot has a reputation beyond reputesoftshot has a reputation beyond reputesoftshot has a reputation beyond repute
 
softshot's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 5,245
vCash: 25
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Mankato MN
   
09-17-2019, 05:47 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
Does squirt do more than change the CB's direction? Couldn't that be done more easily and accurately with a squirtless cue just by changing aim?

pj
chgo
if you can generate more swerve which means more english and more extreme compensations....

vs .. 2 tips of right and jack up a little bit


The Truth: If you have a stroke the gear don't matter... If you don't have a stroke the gear won't help..
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#49)
Patrick Johnson
Fish of the Day
Patrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond repute
 
Patrick Johnson's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 20,175
vCash: 1700
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Jun 2007
   
09-18-2019, 06:20 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by softshot View Post
if you can generate more swerve which means more english and more extreme compensations....

vs .. 2 tips of right and jack up a little bit
I have to admit that makes as much sense as any other argument I’ve heard in support of squirt’s “usefulness”.

pj
chgo
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#50)
Bob Jewett
Northern California

Bob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond repute
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 16,677
vCash: 1700
iTrader: 12 / 100%
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Berkeley, CA
   
09-18-2019, 02:32 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by softshot View Post
if you can generate more swerve which means more english and more extreme compensations....

vs .. 2 tips of right and jack up a little bit
I don't understand your post. Could you please redo it as a complete, stand-alone statement?


Bob Jewett
SF Billiard Academy
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#51)
softshot
Simplify
softshot has a reputation beyond reputesoftshot has a reputation beyond reputesoftshot has a reputation beyond reputesoftshot has a reputation beyond reputesoftshot has a reputation beyond reputesoftshot has a reputation beyond reputesoftshot has a reputation beyond reputesoftshot has a reputation beyond reputesoftshot has a reputation beyond reputesoftshot has a reputation beyond reputesoftshot has a reputation beyond repute
 
softshot's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 5,245
vCash: 25
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Mankato MN
   
09-18-2019, 03:07 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
I don't understand your post. Could you please redo it as a complete, stand-alone statement?
the minor masse effect needed to curve around the edge of a ball is my main contention for "squirt is useful"

the less deflection a shaft has the more difficult it becomes to make the same shot...not saying it can't be learned.. but it IS more difficult.. less deflection means you need more swerve which equates to more english.. and a more extreme stroke line to make the same shot.

I can aim the cut as straight and by minor shift to the side and a minor jacking up on the back of the cue I can connect the curve to the straight aim line easier and with less compensation..

the theoretical squirtless cue has to do this all with swerve meaning a much bigger curve requiring more extreme english to compensate, and far more difficult aiming.


The Truth: If you have a stroke the gear don't matter... If you don't have a stroke the gear won't help..
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#52)
Bob Jewett
Northern California

Bob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond repute
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 16,677
vCash: 1700
iTrader: 12 / 100%
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Berkeley, CA
   
09-18-2019, 03:39 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by softshot View Post
the minor masse effect needed to curve around the edge of a ball is my main contention for "squirt is useful"

the less deflection a shaft has the more difficult it becomes to make the same shot...not saying it can't be learned.. but it IS more difficult.. less deflection means you need more swerve which equates to more english.. and a more extreme stroke line to make the same shot.

I can aim the cut as straight and by minor shift to the side and a minor jacking up on the back of the cue I can connect the curve to the straight aim line easier and with less compensation..

the theoretical squirtless cue has to do this all with swerve meaning a much bigger curve requiring more extreme english to compensate, and far more difficult aiming.
I look at the shot differently. The cue ball will follow the same path in either case. With a low-squirt cue, you have to aim a little farther from the obstructing ball, but you are aiming closer to the actual starting path of the cue ball. I agree that with a high-squirt cue you can more or less ignore the ball you're going to swerve around, but I do the same with a low-squirt shaft. I simply aim to make the ball with the side spin and elevation I need and I try to ignore the obstructing ball and trust the swerve to be there.

I think whether the shot feels harder or not depends a lot more on the player than the cue stick.


Bob Jewett
SF Billiard Academy
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#53)
Patrick Johnson
Fish of the Day
Patrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond repute
 
Patrick Johnson's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 20,175
vCash: 1700
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Jun 2007
   
09-18-2019, 04:39 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by softshot View Post
...less deflection means you need more swerve which equates to more english..
I think it's simpler than that.

More or less deflection only means you have to hit the same CB spot with the cue angled a little differently to get the same direction of force through the CB, giving the same spin, swerve and everything else.

pj
chgo

Last edited by Patrick Johnson; 09-18-2019 at 05:30 PM.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#54)
Patrick Johnson
Fish of the Day
Patrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond repute
 
Patrick Johnson's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 20,175
vCash: 1700
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Jun 2007
   
09-18-2019, 04:48 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
With a low-squirt cue ... you are aiming closer to the actual starting path of the cue ball.
Which I think must make accuracy easier, not harder, like it does on any sidespin-with-swerve shot.

pj
chgo
  
Reply With Quote
not possible to get the same path
Old
  (#55)
ShootingArts
Smorg is giving the 7!

ShootingArts has a reputation beyond reputeShootingArts has a reputation beyond reputeShootingArts has a reputation beyond reputeShootingArts has a reputation beyond reputeShootingArts has a reputation beyond reputeShootingArts has a reputation beyond reputeShootingArts has a reputation beyond reputeShootingArts has a reputation beyond reputeShootingArts has a reputation beyond reputeShootingArts has a reputation beyond reputeShootingArts has a reputation beyond repute
 
ShootingArts's Avatar
 
Status: Online
Posts: 11,601
vCash: 2900
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: South of the Border
   
not possible to get the same path - 09-18-2019, 05:44 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
I think it's simpler than that.

More or less deflection only means you have to hit the same CB spot with the cue angled a little differently to get the same direction of force through the CB, giving the same spin, swerve and everything else.

pj
chgo


It isn't possible to move a low deflection cue to the side and elevate it to get the same path as a high deflection cue. The second half of the path could be very similar, going around a ball three-quarter to the object ball for example. That part of the path can be pretty much identical despite starting off far different.

However, let's look at a ball one-fourth of the way to the object ball now. The person using a low deflection shaft has to aim further out and make a substantially larger arc than the person who gets the original offset largely through deflection. This one specific shot, the high deflection shaft has benefits over the low deflection shaft.

The low deflection shafts offer a lot of benefits and only rarely is the high deflection shaft superior. The shots mentioned here, masse and jump cues, the high deflection shaft is superior.

By the way, you are at 20,000 posts. You should make it a good one like definitive proof of who shot Kennedy or how to achieve peace in the mideast. Then come back to this if you want to.

Hu
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#56)
Patrick Johnson
Fish of the Day
Patrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond repute
 
Patrick Johnson's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 20,175
vCash: 1700
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Jun 2007
   
09-19-2019, 04:22 AM

Quote:
It isn't possible to move a low deflection cue to the side and elevate it to get the same path as a high deflection cue.
??? It happens with every side spin shot. They all curve and they can all be duplicated with either cue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShootingArts View Post
The person using a low deflection shaft has to aim further out and make a substantially larger arc than the person who gets the original offset largely through deflection.
With any side spin shot, whether intentionally curving the CB or simply coping with normal swerve, with different squirt cues you angle the cue differently to get the same initial CB direction. Nothing changes except the angle of the cue.

pj
chgo

Last edited by Patrick Johnson; 09-19-2019 at 11:58 AM.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#57)
erhino41
AzB Silver Member
erhino41 has a reputation beyond reputeerhino41 has a reputation beyond reputeerhino41 has a reputation beyond reputeerhino41 has a reputation beyond reputeerhino41 has a reputation beyond reputeerhino41 has a reputation beyond reputeerhino41 has a reputation beyond reputeerhino41 has a reputation beyond reputeerhino41 has a reputation beyond reputeerhino41 has a reputation beyond reputeerhino41 has a reputation beyond repute
 
erhino41's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 680
vCash: 500
iTrader: 3 / 100%
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Maine
   
09-19-2019, 11:50 AM

I've yet to come across a shot that could not be performed with any amount of squirt, low or high.

There is one shot I feel more comfortable with a low squirt shaft, that is threading the needle between obstructing balls on the way to the ob. I mean shots were there is barely a balls width to go through. I shoot them no problem with my high squirt shaft, they just feel dicey as hell. I've probably fouled once or twice in this situation due to improper squirt calculations.

Other than that it is all practice.



Sent from my LG-H918 using Tapatalk
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#58)
Patrick Johnson
Fish of the Day
Patrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond repute
 
Patrick Johnson's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 20,175
vCash: 1700
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Jun 2007
   
09-19-2019, 12:12 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShootingArts View Post
...jump cues, the high deflection shaft is superior.
I'm painfully aware of this - my low squirt shaft jumps like a deaf frog.

pj
chgo
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#59)
Patrick Johnson
Fish of the Day
Patrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond repute
 
Patrick Johnson's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 20,175
vCash: 1700
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Jun 2007
   
09-19-2019, 05:21 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by erhino41 View Post
I've yet to come across a shot that could not be performed with any amount of squirt
Yep.

Cues with more or less squirt simply produce identical forces at slightly different angles to the cues' center lines - angling the cues slightly differently produces identical forces, directions and CB action.

But WTF is up with low squirt and jumping?

pj
chgo
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#60)
softshot
Simplify
softshot has a reputation beyond reputesoftshot has a reputation beyond reputesoftshot has a reputation beyond reputesoftshot has a reputation beyond reputesoftshot has a reputation beyond reputesoftshot has a reputation beyond reputesoftshot has a reputation beyond reputesoftshot has a reputation beyond reputesoftshot has a reputation beyond reputesoftshot has a reputation beyond reputesoftshot has a reputation beyond repute
 
softshot's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 5,245
vCash: 25
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Mankato MN
   
09-19-2019, 05:27 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
Yep.

But WTF is up with low squirt and jumping?

pj
chgo
the end of the shaft has more give and jumping requires compressing the cueball


The Truth: If you have a stroke the gear don't matter... If you don't have a stroke the gear won't help..
  
Reply With Quote
Reply
Page 4 of 6 « First 234 56

Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.