Is there a way to estimate your APA skill level

It's all very subjective, you might call me a sandbagger when in reality I'm having a bad night or you might say my s/L is to low when I'm having a good night. The APA allows for some player oversight, a handicap review committee, a board of governors and those types of player input all under the supervision of the LO . Does anyone in any area have such a group going on?

Celophanewrap said:

It's all very subjective, you might call me a sandbagger when in reality I'm having a bad night or you might say my s/L is to low when I'm having a good night. The APA allows for some player oversight, a handicap review committee, a board of governors and those types of player input all under the supervision of the LO . Does anyone in any area have such a group going on?

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i know all of the people in my league and can tell if they are having a bad night and when they are playing their regular speed.

last session i played a 3 in 9 ball against a strong 6. my three ended up whooping the 6 and the 6 was rolling his eyes the whole time. even the captain of the other team told his player he was shooting well above his pay grade that night.

NAPA to the rescue...

Many have coined the term NAPA = Not The APA.. And for good reason. Join or start a NAPA league in your area, and experience the difference.

exoldschoolpro said:

What is the highest rating a player can have? What should a player be rated that can beat the 9 ball ghost on a tough table and bet on it? If say 9 is the highest rating, don't you have some who could spot this person rated a 9 the 7. If so, and 9 was the highest rating, how could this be fair when both are rated the same? Also, what are these leagues where people can actually make money playing in them?

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I play in 9-ball in Colorado and I'm a 9. There are other 9's who have won national bar-box championships, can beat the ghost on a tough brunswick, give me the 7 out, and shouldn't be allowed to play in any league with "amateur" in the name. The only thing APA has going for it in the handi-cap fairness department is the shortness of the races. I will say though, my girlfriend and I qualified for the national scotch doubles 8-ball tournament and got 3rd for a pretty nice pay day. so there is some money available.

and I must ask as far as the sandbagging thing, I've never done it or suggested it to any of my teammates, but what's the difference between sandbagging so you can get the cash at Nationals, and dogging it for cheap to get some guy to play for more?

highkarate said:

and I must ask as far as the sandbagging thing, I've never done it or suggested it to any of my teammates, but what's the difference between sandbagging so you can get the cash at Nationals, and dogging it for cheap to get some guy to play for more?

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Not that I do either, but the guy who bets more because he thinks he's playing a sucker loses money because of his own greed. The league sandbagger is making it so that honest people can't win.

Also, people that try to hustle others usually have to play better than their opponent in the first place. Sandbaggers can be completely mediocre players that just get their handicap so low that nobody at a fair handicap even has a chance.

nine_ball6970 said:

I see sandbagging in the BCA. It is a money league so tons of players stay underrated to use the lower handicap when the end of the season rolls around and they can actually make some money. Players I know admit to it. I am actually confused. BCA here uses ratings from AAA to D for the purposes of league nights. Do different areas play by different rules within the BCA? Some BCA leagues handicapped while others aren't? I am not familiar with ACS but I assume you only see what you want to see.

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I guess they do. We have no ratings for teams in our bca leagues here.

TheNewSharkster said:

Read the APA team manually. Sandbagging is absolutely discouraged and they do try and stop it. Why do you think teams are disqualified once they hit the national level?

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Really? I have two friends that went to Maryland. Played left handed so they would have low handy Capps then went to Vegas and made a killing switching back to righty and no one batted and eye. Is kind of like fighting being discouraged in Hockey but the refs skate a round and watch it when it happens lol

zpele said:

For the record. While I may be a bit of a sandbagger- I don't really do it because I want to. It all started when I would get pressured by my teams to stay down so they could continue to field a team.

What I want is a system where sandbagging isn't an issue because there is no need for it.

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I'm sure many Nazis "didn't want" to exterminate Jews. But they were pressured to do it. Sadly wrong is wrong. The motivations and excuses don't absolve anyone of anything.

Teach people to keep score properly. Mark intentional misses as defensive shots. Simple as that. Though simple as that is, people seem much more interested in complaining about a problem that they either contribute to, or can't be bothered with avoiding. If I kept score for every match in my league, sandbagging would vanish almost instantly.

KMRUNOUT

americanfighter said:

Thanks for all the replies. The league starts in a few weeks. I am dissapointed to hear about the sandbagging. I expected some people in the league to do this but not the amount you guys have reported. I want to be competitive and one day make it to the nationals but I hate to cheat like this. I may be kidding myself but right now I am just going to work to be the best I can.

Thanks for all the replies.

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I counted five posters "reporting" the sandbagging. Since I don't know any of them or where they're from, I cannot speak to the validity of their posts or what they have experienced for themselves. What I CAN tell you is that this handful of people are not representative of the pool-playing public in general. The average Joe league player doesn't even know AZBilliards exists. Take what is posted here with a grain of salt, because it could just be someone with an axe to grind (it sounds like at least one of them had a bad experience with a p.o.'ed league operator). That grain of salt includes me. I am an APA operator, and there's usually at least one response when I post that accuses me of drinking kool aid. I have in place all of the anti-sandbagging measures discussed here. I have a committee of higher-skilled players who are anonymous to the rest of the league and report to me. I have forms my players can use to report suspected sandbagging, and I am diligent in skill level reviews. I still have cheaters in my league. When I find out who they are I deal with them. Cheaters don't care if you try to catch or stop them - they will still try to cheat. You just do the best you can and make use of all the resources you have available.

I can also say that the APA as a national organization provides its operators with waaay more resources to battle the cheaters than any other amateur pool league organization in the world. An operator who is unwilling or unable to utilize those resources is doing a disservice to the APA as a whole. But don't let a handful of people here convince you that it's worse than it actually is. Truth be told, it was much much worse twenty years ago than it is today. Perhaps these folks haven't played in the league for a very long time. I don't know.

Enjoy your league night, don't cheat, and don't sweat the cheaters. They are the same people you would suspect of cheating in any other facet of life, and they can't keep you from enjoying yourself with your friends and teammates.

A SL7 in 8ball once estimated if he makes a ball on the break he can run out 10% of the time.

I've played one APA season. I went up to SL6 in 8ball after 3 weeks and stated there the rest of the season. Only once did I run 7 balls and out. Plenty of times I ran 4 or 5 and out. That might give the OP some perspective.

SL7's can range from barely SL7 to semi pro. SL2's can be decent or barely know one end of the cue from the other.



- Jeff in Frisco

All players start at SL 3. It will go up or down depending upon your weekly play. It's not really how many games you win or lose. It has more to do with innings, defensive shots and how bad you win or lose. If you play 9 ball try to keep your winning score at a 12-8 or 13-7 point spread. The more innings you have, the longer it takes for you to win a game the chances of your SL going up are slimmer. Defensive shots subtract from your innings. An inning is after you both went to the table. Be honest don't sandbag.

moneychic74 said:

Stuff

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I would hope he has figured it out within the last 7 years.

Welcome to the forum.

zpele said:

Hence the reason I'm saying that in order to be competitive at the national level you need to be one of those rating below your actual skill.

The APA system is broken and doesn't account for many things.

Lets take for example the fact that innings are counted into your SL....

Efren Reyes and Bustamante play a match. They each play 50 safeties on eachother. The game has 100+ innings. According to the APA that would mean that they partially suck.

The APA formula is based off of quality of opponent, innings, and win percentage among a few other 'top secret' stats. But the reality is that there is such a large disparrage between a 4 in Ohio and a 4 in Rhode Island that it lends itself to an unfair advantage for sandbaggers.

Sorry to derail your thread btw...

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This thread is extremely dense with misinformation.

First, if any two players play 50 safes each, and there are 100 innings, then they both missed 50 times. Those players are not good. 1 inning involves a turn by both players.

Second, the APA formula has *nothing* to do with your opponent. It is almost entirely based on your innings per game (for 8 ball). Your win % does not have any bearing except in those cases when you win, but with a score below your average. A 4 in any area of the world is a 4 because of their average innings per game.

KMRUNOUT

zpele said:

There is no way to police the system because there is no national standard for handicaps. The handicaps are all set by the local League Operator. This makes for inconsistencies literally across the board.

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This is simply false. The system whereby handicaps are set is a nationwide system. League operators have some discretion for raising people that they believe are sandbagging. Many players have nationally locked handicaps.

I you want to be that guy that craps on something, try getting your information straight before doing so.

KMRUNOUT

zpele said:

Alright let me clarify..... Most game the system but there may be some honest people out there.

The reality is that about 2% of people ever make it to Vegas and of that 2% I'm willing to bet at least 75% is ranked at a lower handicap than they should be.

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Well apparently I'm very rare indeed. I have been to Vegas 3 years in a row for 9 ball teams and once also for Jack & Jill. I have never EVER lost a match on purpose.

dswolves said:

Well apparently I'm very rare indeed. I have been to Vegas 3 years in a row for 9 ball teams and once also for Jack & Jill. I have never EVER lost a match on purpose.

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Yep, you are rare, and so is a team that does not suggest you sandbag. Half the talk I hear during league nights is a team discussing how many matches they need to lose to keep the players from going up. The other half is who is buying the round and what drinks to order. There is a 0.5% time for practice and where they talk about how to get better to win more.

KMRUNOUT said:

zpele said:

(2012 statement) There is no way to police the system because there is no national standard for handicaps. The handicaps are all set by the local League Operator. This makes for inconsistencies literally across the board.

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(2019 reply) This is simply false. The system whereby handicaps are set is a nationwide system. League operators have some discretion for raising people that they believe are sandbagging. Many players have nationally locked handicaps.

I you want to be that guy that craps on something, try getting your information straight before doing so.

KMRUNOUT

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Did you just disagree with a statement made 7 years ago and apply today's facts to show it's wrong? lol. Well played.

Also:

Claudius Ptolemaeus said:

The sun revolves around the Earth

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NO IT DOESN'T. I believe Galileo. Use Google, Ptolemy. Werd.

-td

I played one season of APA and was stunned at the system for so many reasons. NAPA is the best I've found. ZERO reason to lose ever. If you lose, you don't get points, if you don't get points, you don't get the cash. The end.