Byrne's Standard Book (1978) -- deflection

Seth C.

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Perhaps this belongs in the Main Forum, but inasmuch as Byrne's Standard Book of Pool and Billiards is oriented more toward straight pool than other games, I thought I'd post here. I'm also a straight pool guy.

I learned to play in, and, until recently, had played only in, the 1979-1981 time frame, and the first and only book that I read at that time was Byrne's Standard Book. I came away from reading it with the thought that right English would throw the ball to the left, and vice versa. Accordingly, as an example, on a straight in shot where I wanted the cue ball, after contact with the object ball, to travel forward and to the left of the normal line of aim, I figured that I should aim left of center and put high right English on the cue ball. The right English, I thought, would throw the object ball to the left, compensating for the new line of aim which was intended to create some angle and avoid a scratch. I might have subconsciously considered the possibility of some curve to the right, had I been stroking the cue ball slowly. Never did I consider the phenomenon of deflection that I now, in my second, 35 yrs. later return venture into playing pool, have come to understand. Now, when applying high right English, I aim more at the center of the object ball, trusting deflection to cause the cue ball to veer to the left of my line of aim (thus creating angle), and then trusting throw (spin) to put the cue ball back onto a path into the pocket. After recently learning about deflection, I figured that back when I first began to play, I must simply have failed to pick up on this effect of English. I also concluded that my past misses on longer (in terms of distance of cue ball travel prior to impact with the object ball), faster shots with English were now more understandable to me. (By the way, I have always played with a standard maple shaft.)

I recently took one of my son's friends to the pool room that I frequent, and saw that he could benefit from learning some basics about English. I told him that I would find Byrne's book on my shelves and loan it to him. When I pulled it off the shelf, I decided to re-read what he had written about English. I was intrigued to discover that he had emphasized gear effect and curve, and had barely addressed deflection (which he calls "squirt"). In fact, "squirt" isn't directly discussed until one gets to Book Two ("THREE-CUSHION BILLIARDS"). Further, in Book One ("POOL"), there is a page (p. 45, "A frequently missed shot") on which Byrne describes and diagrams a cue ball struck with high right English veering to the right as a result of curve, while never mentioning "squirt." He does say, on p. 43 ("Allowing for curve"), that "On a very hard stroke the cueball has no time to curve at all -- in fact, it may "squirt" in the opposite direction (see p. 264)," but when one reads p. 264 (which is in Book Two on three cushion billiards), one reads that it is a phenomenon that comes into play on "length-of-the-table shots that must be struck hard with maximim English," and he closes by saying that "Many players are unaware of it . . . it is, admittedly, seldom a significant factor." (Ellipses in original). The discussion on p. 85 ("Throwing an object ball at a distance") also makes no mention of deflection, but cautions that the shooter must account for curve.

I must say that I felt a little better about my long-standing ignorance regarding deflection, and the magnitude of its effect as compared to the effect of curve. Byrne's Standard Book didn't really give it enough emphasis, I don't think. Or am I missing something? Ironic, if I can use that word, is Byrne's preface to his largely deflection-devoid section on throw, in which he states, "The following explanation of throw shots is the most complete ever to appear in print. Certain hustlers are going to hate me for spoiling the beans."

Did Byrne discuss deflection more/differently in his "New Standard Book," or other, later writings? Has my observation about his 1978 Standard Book been made by others? Again, am I missing something? From other (web resource) readings, I gather that cue ball deflection is considered to be a more significant consideration than cue ball curve (other than when the cue ball travels at a slow speed), and my own (recent) experience is consistent with these other readings.

I am in no way trying to bash Byrne's 1978 book, which is wonderful in so many ways.

Thanks in advance for anyone's input.
 
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sjm

Older and Wiser
Silver Member
Interesting post and I can't answer your question but a couple of things that may be relevant:

1) when Byrne wrote his book, slow nappy cloth was still in use. Was there more curve back then because of that cloth?

2) curve is more important in 14.1 than in rotation pool because there are so many more soft hits of the cue ball.
 

pdcue

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Deflection is a marketing term made up by Moooochie.

What you are describing is known as "squirt"

An off center hit does push the CB off line in the opposite direction.

The CB still curves back - though not as much on Simonis as on a napped cloth.

Right English still throws the OB to the left.

If you don't know exactly where to hit the OB, you have a bigger issue than
not understanding Mr. Byrne

Dale(aim is the teacher)
 
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Seth C.

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Interesting post and I can't answer your question but a couple of things that may be relevant:

1) when Byrne wrote his book, slow nappy cloth was still in use. Was there more curve back then because of that cloth?

2) curve is more important in 14.1 than in rotation pool because there are so many more soft hits of the cue ball.

Thanks for your reply and thoughts. I appreciate them.
 

Seth C.

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Please see replies below:

Deflection is a marketing term made up by Moooochie.

Okay. Whatever the genesis of the term, I wasn't trying to distinguish it from squirt in any way.

What you are describing is known as "squirt"

Yes, I know. I also know that it is commonly called deflection today. In my first post I noted that Byrne calls deflection "squirt," reflecting my understanding that the terms mean the same thing, not different things.

An off center hit does push the CB off line in the opposite direction.

Yes, I am aware of that.

The CB still curves back - though not as much on Simonis as on a napped cloth.

Yes, I am aware of that too, although the effect of the type of cloth wasn't something that I had focused on.

Right English still throws the OB to the right.

Well, yes, to the extent that right English causes the cue ball to squirt to the left and therefore impact the object ball more its left side (from the shooter's vantage point), or thinner, than would otherwise be the case, but no, not in terms of spin or curve (see Byrne at pp. 85 -- "Throwing an object ball at distance" and "Throwing an object ball up close").

If you don't know exactly where to hit the OB, you have a bigger issue than
not understanding Mr. Byrne

I don't understand why you felt it appropriate to say this. I'm interested only in the game and being positive about it and with others.

Dale(aim is the teacher)
 

pdcue

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Please see replies below:

Just noticed, my speedy typing resulted in a mistrake.

Right English throws the OB to the LEFT(not the right as I incorrectly typed)

Danny D describes it as working like GEARS. This effect is separate from
any curving done for any reason by the CB.

It certainly seemed to me you don't understand that.

Dale
 

Seth C.

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Just noticed, my speedy typing resulted in a mistrake.

Right English throws the OB to the LEFT(not the right as I incorrectly typed)

Danny D describes it as working like GEARS. This effect is separate from
any curving done for any reason by the CB.

It certainly seemed to me you don't understand that.

Dale

No problem.

I certainly knew about gear effect throw. As I said at the outset of my original post, "I learned to play, and, until recently, played only in, the 1979-1981 time frame, and the first and only book that I read at that time was Byrne's Standard Book. I came away from reading it with the thought that right English would throw the ball to the left, and vice versa." Indeed, the entire point of my original post was that although Mr. Byrne had taught me about gear effect throw (and, while I didn't go into it in my OP, he also talked about "cling" -- friction induced throw and skidding), he hadn't caused me to realize how much, at least from distance and with speed, squirt was a factor. It struck me, after learning about the frequency with which squirt factors into shots, the magnitude of its effect (relative to curve, at least from distance and with speed), and the resultant, meaningful extent to which compensation must be made for squirt when aiming, that I must have missed something when originally reading what had been my "bible," but after re-reading his work, I am not so self-critical. I was basically wondering whether I was alone in thinking that Byrne had perhaps failed to adequately discuss squirt. I imagine that I'm in a relatively small group of people who read Byrne's first book and then read no other instructional writings about the aiming implications of English until many years later. Most of the rest of you probably weren't as reliant as I was, at least not for as long a period of time, on what he communicated. I feel as if I was a little misled all those years ago, but as I rarely played between 1981 and the beginning of this year, it hasn't mattered, and I'm just glad that I picked up on deflection (squirt) this time around.

Seth
 

alstl

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Easy way to test whether right English, I use low right, throws the ball to the left is to set up a shot with another ball between the cue ball and the object ball in such a way so you cant pocket the ball without throwing it.

Soft hit, low right, throws the ball to the left and vice versa.
 

Seth C.

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Easy way to test whether right English, I use low right, throws the ball to the left is to set up a shot with another ball between the cue ball and the object ball in such a way so you cant pocket the ball without throwing it.

Soft hit, low right, throws the ball to the left and vice versa.

Thanks. That gear effect throw exists was never in question. At least not on my part. My post was about Mr. Byrne's relative lack of emphasis about squirt (deflection).
 

alstl

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Thanks. That gear effect throw exists was never in question. At least not on my part. My post was about Mr. Byrne's relative lack of emphasis about squirt (deflection).

I'm no expert and I can't speak for Byrne my experience is deflection varies depending on individual cues/shafts and even the shape of the tip which is one reason why guys like Earl, when they get a new cue sponsor, have the cue built to match what they were playing with previously.
 

Dan White

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I don't think there is an official glossary of terminology for things like squirt and deflection. However, I believe that historically deflection was really meant to refer to what happens to the shaft and squirt was meant to describe the path of the cue ball. The fact that people call squirt deflection confuses the issue.

I think there are a number of things in the 1978 book that would be written differently today, knowing what we know now, at least from the physics perspective. It may be a terrific book (I do have it) but I don't think it is the last word on everything in billiards.
 

Seth C.

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I don't think there is an official glossary of terminology for things like squirt and deflection. However, I believe that historically deflection was really meant to refer to what happens to the shaft and squirt was meant to describe the path of the cue ball. The fact that people call squirt deflection confuses the issue.

I think there are a number of things in the 1978 book that would be written differently today, knowing what we know now, at least from the physics perspective. It may be a terrific book (I do have it) but I don't think it is the last word on everything in billiards.

Thanks for your reply. I can see that use of the word "deflection" to describe cue ball path could cause confusion, and I'll avoid using it going forward.

Yes, that was really my point -- Byrne's book should not be fully relied upon today. Contrast what Byrne wrote and I quoted in my original post ("Many players are unaware of it [squirt] . . . it is, admittedly, seldom a significant factor") with what Mark Wilson wrote in his recently published book ("Play Great Pool"): "After you stroke the cue ball to the left of the vertical axis, it will squirt some extent to the right, and then begin curving some extent back to the left. With a fairly level cue, this effect is minimized, and squirt is then the predominant effect."
 

poolmouse

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I learned to play, and, until recently, played only in, the 1979-1981 time frame, and the first and only book that I read at that time was Byrne's Standard Book.

Me too, I was in the US Army and that book was available at the library.

I studied that book for months, grasped the concepts early on.
 

AtLarge

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Thanks for your reply. I can see that use of the word "deflection" to describe cue ball path could cause confusion, and I'll avoid using it going forward. ...

The term "cue-ball deflection" is also used for squirt, and is much better (less chance for confusion) as an alternative for squirt than just "deflection" alone.
 
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Corwyn_8

Energy Curmudgeon
Silver Member
I seem to recall Byrne getting more into squirt in a BD article sometime in the 90's. He stated that his former description was incomplete. That article might be available somewhere online. So, perhaps he agrees with you.
 

M.G.

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Hi,

you might just want to freshen up at Dr Dave Billiards - a lot has happened since that old book of yours ;) From tables to balls and finally cues and tips.

Also with 14.1 there are no real "forced" shots, usually. Completely different with 9 ball (or any rotation) where you might need to travel from one side to the other or alter angles in a drastic way because there's only 1 ball you are allowed to shoot next, on the whole table.

I had no real problems with squirt / deflection until I started playing Carom and was getting into advanced topics; there I would need to compensate up to 1/2 of a ball in aiming for the squirt which was terrible and unpredictable.

Quick sentence: equipment has gotten way more sensitive since the old days.

Happy learning!

Cheers,
M
 

Seth C.

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Thanks for the feedback.

Yes, I've needed to freshen up, and more. But actually, the point of my post was that I thought that I'd been led astray -- by the omission, way back when, of any real discussion of squirt -- which was, and remains, a very important aspect of play, at least if one does not use LD shafts (I use standard maple shafts). Also, while I agree that squirt comes into play less frequently in straight pool than in 9 ball and certain other games, it surely does come into play in straight pool, and needs to be accounted for. Take, as but one example, a break shot of modest length that should be played with outside draw. Better aim to account for squirt ...

Maybe this is semantics, but I think that with LD shafts, equipment has gotten less "sensitive" -- i.e., less responsive to changes in tip placement relative to center cue ball.

Regards --

Hi,

you might just want to freshen up at Dr Dave Billiards - a lot has happened since that old book of yours ;) From tables to balls and finally cues and tips.

Also with 14.1 there are no real "forced" shots, usually. Completely different with 9 ball (or any rotation) where you might need to travel from one side to the other or alter angles in a drastic way because there's only 1 ball you are allowed to shoot next, on the whole table.

I had no real problems with squirt / deflection until I started playing Carom and was getting into advanced topics; there I would need to compensate up to 1/2 of a ball in aiming for the squirt which was terrible and unpredictable.

Quick sentence: equipment has gotten way more sensitive since the old days.

Happy learning!

Cheers,
M
 

M.G.

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Maybe this is semantics, but I think that with LD shafts, equipment has gotten less "sensitive" -- i.e., less responsive to changes in tip placement relative to center cue ball.

Yes, less strange behaviour, when you move off center!
What I meant:
The cloth has gotten way more sensitive to speed (i.e. faster), the balls way more neutral in a sense they don't grab each other, but instead "explode apart" on impact (the Tournament Aramiths quite spectacularly) and every milimeter will change the angle in a quite drastic way. The pockets will rattle the balls on a funky angle and the chalk has gotten way more durable.

The effects are there, esp. if you do bridge lengths that do not match your shafts squirt properties; this is discussed quite well at Dr Dave, too, and might be a very interesting read for you.

If you want to try something else - Tiger X LD is affordable, provides good feeback, available almost everywhere with any joint you might like and doesn't cost a fortune.
That are the reasons why I choose it.

Cheers!
M
 

poolmouse

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Yes, less strange behaviour, when you move off center!
What I meant:
The cloth has gotten way more sensitive to speed (i.e. faster), the balls way more neutral in a sense they don't grab each other, but instead "explode apart" on impact (the Tournament Aramiths quite spectacularly) and every milimeter will change the angle in a quite drastic way. The pockets will rattle the balls on a funky angle and the chalk has gotten way more durable.

The effects are there, esp. if you do bridge lengths that do not match your shafts squirt properties; this is discussed quite well at Dr Dave, too, and might be a very interesting read for you.

If you want to try something else - Tiger X LD is affordable, provides good feeback, available almost everywhere with any joint you might like and doesn't cost a fortune.
That are the reasons why I choose it.

Cheers!
M

I switched to a 2nd Generation Predator about 6-8 years ago and I had to change my aim. I had to force myself to trust that I didn't have to compensate for deflection when shooting hard. The change made a HUGE difference in my game. Hard shots aren't that much of a crap shoot anymore. I don't think I can ever go back to a standard shaft. I'm guessing the difference between the major players in this arena, Tiger and Predator, is miniscule.
 

Seth C.

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I switched to a 2nd Generation Predator about 6-8 years ago and I had to change my aim. I had to force myself to trust that I didn't have to compensate for deflection when shooting hard. The change made a HUGE difference in my game. Hard shots aren't that much of a crap shoot anymore. I don't think I can ever go back to a standard shaft. I'm guessing the difference between the major players in this arena, Tiger and Predator, is miniscule.

To be clear, my original post wasn't a complaint about squirt, a request for info on ways to reduce or eliminate it, or an effort to start another debate about the effectiveness/pros-cons of LD shafts. Just an observation about Byrne's Standard Book!
 
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