Advice on break shots

Dan White

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
On another subject, I notice from your video that your elbow is in perfect alignment with the shot when you shoot harder and drop the elbow down. My elbow tends to drop inward toward my body and it is a little hard for me to figure out a solution to that. Have you always just done this naturally or did you have a method for assuring that your elbow stayed in line with the shot?

I look forward to watching the rest of your run.
 

Poolmanis

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Dan White:
Found your question from here..

lot of practice of that elbow thing years ago(and stroke). Nowadays i don´t practice stroke at all.
Or maybe once in 2 weeks(5-10 minutes) i shoot long draw shots and practicing also little elbow drop.
Then you get so much speed and spin if you drop elbow slightly just before contact to cue ball. It takes away jerky shots.
Can´t tell any recipe for that thought..
 

Dan White

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Dan White:
Found your question from here..

lot of practice of that elbow thing years ago(and stroke). Nowadays i don´t practice stroke at all.
Or maybe once in 2 weeks(5-10 minutes) i shoot long draw shots and practicing also little elbow drop.
Then you get so much speed and spin if you drop elbow slightly just before contact to cue ball. It takes away jerky shots.
Can´t tell any recipe for that thought..

My elbow was always close, but not perfect, on most shots. It turned out that a simple solution (well, this is pool, nothing is simple) was to turn the back foot perpendicular to the shot. That readjusted the elbow. I still have an issue with dropping and turning it in on harder shots. I'm not sure if it causes any problems, but I prefer not to drop the elbow.

Thanks!
 

wigglybridge

14.1 straight pool!
Silver Member
interesting, Dan. one of the things i discovered from video last fall that led to my rapid runup in skill was that my elbow was pulling sharply in on power shots.

but my solution was opposite yours: i found that if i used the stance recommended in Play Great Pool, it made the situation worse. well, in fact, it Created it; if i went to a modern snooker stance, i have none of that. zero.

it's the one part of PGP that i think is either different for different people, or perhaps flat-out wrong: Mark even says "well, snooker players are the best, but..." and then diverges -- Radically -- from their technique with no real justification.

but if it works for you, then maybe the "to each his own" applies here.
 
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Dan White

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
but if it works for you, then maybe the "to each his own" applies here.

I guess it is usually that way in sports. However, I always felt that billiards in America, in particular, lacked any real standardization for what should be done to play at a high level. I think it is still that way. Imagine if you went to two different golf pros and one of them told you to keep your left arm straight, and the other says it isn't that important to keep your left arm straight. I think we have a little too much of that in billiards.

Rempe taught me the stance I have now, with some tweaking (for the better) by PGP.

I think Mark Wilson is right when he says what feels wrong at first might actually be correct. You need time for your body to adjust to it. So often you see advise to "do what is comfortable."
 

Poolmanis

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I practiced stroke, alignment, stance, etc.. A LOT when I was younger.
Then I got rheumatism to my back and that finally made me end my research of "holy grail of stroke"
Now I go and shoot whatever stance my back let me. More and more I noticed that stroke and alignment goes right even not think about it if you watch "balls right way".
Can't really tell it any better. Without pool table.

Try finding out universal errors - those that everybody does. From bangers to pro players. Think why them are happening and figure way to overcome those errors.
That is way to get new level to aiming. Finding and using all help what your brains and eyes can get.
Same rules apply to stroke. Many peoples get stuck on plateau because someone say to they make it wrong way. Like "you have to keep elbow still on power shots also"
Don't care whatever "instructions" you get from "experts" find what really works for you..

Best way learn to shoot long draw with accuracy is set up one and shoot it A LOT.
Make necessary adjustments to your stance and stroke so you can shoot it without too much muscle. No matter how good you are this practice need to done perfect performance to even get 80% success ratio. Early ratio is probably 10-25% of time good shot. It is way too low for normal drills but now practice is perfection.

Ps. I was little better player when I was younger because I was near 5 years totally off from pool due my back. Had to learn all again and I never got as good stroke what I had.
 

Dan White

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Best way learn to shoot long draw with accuracy is set up one and shoot it A LOT.
Make necessary adjustments to your stance and stroke so you can shoot it without too much muscle. No matter how good you are this practice need to done perfect performance to even get 80% success ratio. Early ratio is probably 10-25% of time good shot. It is way too low for normal drills but now practice is perfection.

I agree with much of what you are saying, but of course you can learn a lot from people who came before you and understand the journey to become a better player. So, of course you have to hit A LOT of those draw shots, but you also would be wise to learn from others.

If I've learned one important thing in recent years, it is how to stroke the cue with the minimum number of muscles being involved.
 

Str8PoolMan

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I guess it is usually that way in sports. However, I always felt that billiards in America, in particular, lacked any real standardization for what should be done to play at a high level. I think it is still that way. Imagine if you went to two different golf pros and one of them told you to keep your left arm straight, and the other says it isn't that important to keep your left arm straight. I think we have a little too much of that in billiards.

Rempe taught me the stance I have now, with some tweaking (for the better) by PGP.

I think Mark Wilson is right when he says what feels wrong at first might actually be correct. You need time for your body to adjust to it. So often you see advise to "do what is comfortable."

Trust me, there's a whole lot of this in golf as well.
 

Dan White

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Trust me, there's a whole lot of this in golf as well.

In pool, kids pick up a cue and can play incorrectly for a lifetime without any instruction whatsoever, other than "aim and shoot." In golf, you can't even make contact with the ball without some relatively detailed instruction. It's just too complicated a motion.

That's all I'm sayin'.
 

Seth C.

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
So ... my next question is whether anyone has firm thoughts on how to avoid drawing back to the head rail and leaving oneself with a length of table shot after making the break ball. For those who are not Thorsten Hohman -- well, at least for me -- going to the head rail means ending up pretty close to it -- too close to it -- whether reaching it and rebounding, or not quite reaching it. I often try to avoid this by hitting a stun shot with just a little draw, but that doesn't always produce a friendly next shot. I guess my question could be posed two ways: (1) what setup is likely to cause the cue all to come down to the head rail, and (2) what setup allows one to play a shot with at least a moderate amount of draw without risking going to the head rail. I presume it largely has to do with whether the cue ball is hitting the top, middle or bottom of a ball in the stack, but I also assume that speed has something to do with it.
 

AtLarge

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Ralf Eckert has many good YouTube videos on various topics both in German and English. He loves 14.1.

There is one video, unfortunately in German, on the 14.1 break. I've watched it trying to follow along but can't understand 75% of what he's saying...........I'm sure its packed full of good info.

Maybe someone could contact him and request an English version. Anyway, here's the link below.

DTL

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJfD0sRBIbk

Thanks for the link. I think some important points were understandable even if it had no audio.
 

Poolmanis

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Ralf Eckert has many good YouTube videos on various topics both in German and English. He loves 14.1.

There is one video, unfortunately in German, on the 14.1 break. I've watched it trying to follow along but can't understand 75% of what he's saying...........I'm sure its packed full of good info.

Maybe someone could contact him and request an English version. Anyway, here's the link below.

DTL

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJfD0sRBIbk

LoL.
These things what Ralf Eckert teaches here is same stuff what i experienced just couple weeks ago.
That video is really good info!

Something from my experience and from video too:
You need to get steep angle so you can get accurate hit to exact ball and what part of ball it hits(you can also use this for additional info for your brains for how to aim break ball also. If you hit right part of stack you will make ball also) decides what spin you use. Sometimes there is 2 or even 3 different spin and speed options what will work and are more like personal preference.
Shallow angle break shots of course are okay too but big guys use steeper angles. :cool:

I don´t speak German either but still really good video!
His hand gestures get the work done.
 

Dan White

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
LoL.
These things what Ralf Eckert teaches here is same stuff what i experienced just couple weeks ago.
That video is really good info!

Something from my experience and from video too:
You need to get steep angle so you can get accurate hit to exact ball and what part of ball it hits(you can also use this for additional info for your brains for how to aim break ball also. If you hit right part of stack you will make ball also) decides what spin you use. Sometimes there is 2 or even 3 different spin and speed options what will work and are more like personal preference.
Shallow angle break shots of course are okay too but big guys use steeper angles. :cool:

I don´t speak German either but still really good video!
His hand gestures get the work done.

Poolmanis - my brains love the way you speak english. :)
 

stevekur1

The "COMMISH"
Silver Member
Ralf Eckert has many good YouTube videos on various topics both in German and English. He loves 14.1.

There is one video, unfortunately in German, on the 14.1 break. I've watched it trying to follow along but can't understand 75% of what he's saying...........I'm sure its packed full of good info.

Maybe someone could contact him and request an English version. Anyway, here's the link below.

DTL

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJfD0sRBIbk

I watched this video last night, Ralph and Pool Stage did an amazing job with it.

though i didnt understand one bit of german, i can see that there was a wealth of info contained here.

I am searching for a way that maybe i could ad subtitles to the video. i tried the setting on youtube as far a translated subtitles and that didnt work.

It would be great if Ralph and Pool Stage did an english version !!

-Steve
 

Blackjack

Illuminati Blacksmack
Silver Member
I watched this video last night, Ralph and Pool Stage did an amazing job with it.

though i didnt understand one bit of german, i can see that there was a wealth of info contained here.

I am searching for a way that maybe i could ad subtitles to the video. i tried the setting on youtube as far a translated subtitles and that didnt work.

It would be great if Ralph and Pool Stage did an english version !!

-Steve

You could always just ask Ralph on FB ... or perhaps someone should wake up Ingo ... he could translate.
:grin:
 

dmgwalsh

Straight Pool Fanatic
Silver Member
You could always just ask Ralph on FB ... or perhaps someone should wake up Ingo ... he could translate.
:grin:


BJ: I tagged him in a link of it on Illinois Straight Pool Club on Facebook yesterday, but no response.

So I sent him a message today asking if he had anything in English covering the subject.

I know he is busy in Singapore training the team, but maybe we will get lucky and he will respond.

Here's his response.

"Hi Dennis,
It's complicated. We were running out of time back then to do it another time in English...
I wrote a little bit about it in my first book (1995).
I'm not sure, but I guess I did a similar one for www.checkbilliard.com .
But then it's in the section for gold members (customers) of our training-app!

I might talk to the ceo if he might release this particular one for promotional reasons on YouTube...
Best, Ralph."

and

" you should find it in "Modern Pool". It's about when the cue ball strikes the rack it hits it mostly between two balls! And if it hits the lower one first the CB goes towards the kitchen (except playing high), if it hits the upper one first it goes principally downward between the first diamond and the foot corner. And that it is sometimes hard to predict which ball will be strike first. Some details in it but basically I tell that there are only 3 basic directions possible and you should learn to predict them right and strike the cue ball accordingly.
That's the short version for you...
Greetings from Singapore..."
 
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stevekur1

The "COMMISH"
Silver Member
You could always just ask Ralph on FB ... or perhaps someone should wake up Ingo ... he could translate.
:grin:

I sent Ralph a PM on Facebook as well !!!

yes maybe Mr. Ingo can do a voice over that would be fantastic


CALLING MR. INGO, COME IN MR. INGO !!!

-Steve
 
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Seth C.

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
BJ: I tagged him in a link of it on Illinois Straight Pool Club on Facebook yesterday, but no response.

So I sent him a message today asking if he had anything in English covering the subject.

I know he is busy in Singapore training the team, but maybe we will get lucky and he will respond.

Here's his response.

"Hi Dennis,
It's complicated. We were running out of time back then to do it another time in English...
I wrote a little bit about it in my first book (1995).
I'm not sure, but I guess I did a similar one for www.checkbilliard.com .
But then it's in the section for gold members (customers) of our training-app!

I might talk to the ceo if he might release this particular one for promotional reasons on YouTube...
Best, Ralph."

and

" you should find it in "Modern Pool". It's about when the cue ball strikes the rack it hits it mostly between two balls! And if it hits the lower one first the CB goes towards the kitchen (except playing high), if it hits the upper one first it goes principally downward between the first diamond and the foot corner. And that it is sometimes hard to predict which ball will be strike first. Some details in it but basically I tell that there are only 3 basic directions possible and you should learn to predict them right and strike the cue ball accordingly.
That's the short version for you...
Greetings from Singapore..."

The question (in my mind) then being: how should one strike the cue ball "accordingly"? There seems to be general consensus that if one has a steep enough angle, follow is the shot, irrespective of whether the CB will strike the top, middle or bottom of a stack ball, or right in between two stack balls. But let's say the CB will strike the stack other than at a corner, and (a) the line between the CB and break ball is near or exactly parallel to the long rail, or (b) the angle is somewhat shallower, then, in each of those two cases (with the primary goals of not scratching and not leaving the CB down on or near the head rail), what strike should be put on the CB, for each of the scenarios (of the CB hitting high on a stack ball, directly on a stack ball, low on a stack ball, or right in between stack balls)? (Of course, the strike that is put on the CB can affect where it hits a stack ball or balls -- I get that part).
 
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