Scientist explains why laminated tips perform as they do

arnaldo

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Regarding the largely unresolved question (in scientific terms) about the often-cited performance superiority of laminated tips versus traditional single-layer ones, a few years ago I contacted Jack H. Koehler who is renowned in pool circles for his scientific analysis and explanations about the physics of pool. He’s the best-selling author of “The Science of Pocket Billiards,” “Upscale Nine-Ball,” and
“Upscale One-Pocket” as well as more than 20 scientific papers on subjects unrelated to pool.

I thought he’d be the perfect man to understand and hopefully explain the physical mechanisms or science underlying the commonly discussed unique characteristics and superior performance of laminated cue tips compared to conventional non-layered tips. (Varied opinions continue of course in matters of "superiority" with more than a few players returning to conventional tips after trying laminated ones.)

Below is his then-emailed reply to me which contains his very creditable thoughts on layered tips (and which I thought would be interesting to share with fellow AB-ers
--------------------------------------------------------------
“Leather (from the donor animal) is not homogenous. The texture (and hardness) changes from the hair side to the inside. If the tip is made of one piece of leather, you get a simple progression from hard to soft. The thin pieces of leather skived for lamination purposes have these same characteristics but when you stack them, to get the proper thickness, the final product is much more homogeneous. The randomness of grain from layer to layer when compiling the stacks, which you properly mention, probably also plays a part in the resulting superiority and performance characteristics.”
---------------------------------------------------------------
I think that, as usual and as expected, he got right to the heart of the matter.

I would add that the nature of the adhesive (and the process) involved in lamination also affect the often discussed pros and cons of performance when comparing the two overall categories (laminated vs. single-layered) with respect to "grab", glazing, mushrooming, longevity, change in hardness over time, chalk retention, etc.

Arnaldo
 

bflojosh

The sneakiest sneaky
Silver Member
Great post.
Why anyone would want to use a single-layer tip (Le Pro, et al) is beyond me. :)

I agree mostly, but the milkduds available from Pooldawg8 are the best tip I've ever used.
That could be because the pressing of the tips makes them more uniform, but who knows I'm just guessing :thumbup:
 

Tramp Steamer

One Pocket enthusiast.
Silver Member
I agree mostly, but the milkduds available from Pooldawg8 are the best tip I've ever used.
That could be because the pressing of the tips makes them more uniform, but who knows I'm just guessing :thumbup:


Without a doubt the best tip going today is the Ultraskin, in soft, medium, or hard, from Tom Hay. Order some and tell him I sent you. First-class construction. Excellent playability.
Other tips, that comes to mind, are the Fourskin tips from Steamer Cue Sports Ltd.
Gathered from circumscision wards from some of the best hospitals in the country; they are arguably the best tips money can buy, and are available in your choice of soft, kinda hard, and damned hard.
Also, coming out this year, is the new break tip: The Diamond Cutter. :)
 

maha

from way back when
Silver Member
yea its utterly amazing moscani ran all those balls with a single layer leather tip. and lassiter, and mizerak. how on earth did it happen?
 

Sloppy Pockets

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Other tips, that comes to mind, are the Fourskin tips from Steamer Cue Sports Ltd.
Gathered from circumscision wards from some of the best hospitals in the country; they are arguably the best tips money can buy, and are available in your choice of soft, kinda hard, and damned hard.

Just make sure to carry a supply of Fourex Natural tip protectors. They will prevent your tip from contamination, just in case you end up placing your shaft in some filthy place you wish you hadn't.
 

arnaldo

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I agree mostly, but the milkduds available from Pooldawg8 are the best tip I've ever used.
That could be because the pressing of the tips makes them more uniform . . .
-----------------------------------------------
Excellent and very pertinent reasoning, Josh. In fact your comment actually highlights the fact that pressed tips really deserve to be considered as a third and quite unique category in any discussion of tips involving comparisons of the performances of laminated and single-layer ones.

Thanks for that observation that actually stimulates the idea of a very real third overall category of tips that are gaining wide acceptance among players who've tried pressed tips. I know that players have pre-pressed Le Pros, Elkmasters, etc. for many decades, but it never occurred to me before that they indeed represent their own unique category (and "pool physics" attributes to be analyzed) especially with the dimension of casein proteins introduced to leather during pre-soaking in milk.

Arnaldo
 

genomachino

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Ki tech tips are the nutz.......

Great post.
Why anyone would want to use a single-layer tip (Le Pro, et al) is beyond me. :)

I don't care what anyone says about layered tips vs whatever.

The Ki tech medium that I switched to from a layered tip plays consistent and doesn't overspin the rock.

The layered tips just grab too much.

My game went up a ball by switching back. But not just to any tip.

The ki tech medium.
 

RBC

Deceased
Regarding the largely unresolved question (in scientific terms) about the often-cited performance superiority of laminated tips versus traditional single-layer ones, a few years ago I contacted Jack H. Koehler who is renowned in pool circles for his scientific analysis and explanations about the physics of pool. He’s the best-selling author of “The Science of Pocket Billiards,” “Upscale Nine-Ball,” and
“Upscale One-Pocket” as well as more than 20 scientific papers on subjects unrelated to pool.

I thought he’d be the perfect man to understand and hopefully explain the physical mechanisms or science underlying the commonly discussed unique characteristics and superior performance of laminated cue tips compared to conventional non-layered tips. (Varied opinions continue of course in matters of "superiority" with more than a few players returning to conventional tips after trying laminated ones.)

Below is his then-emailed reply to me which contains his very creditable thoughts on layered tips (and which I thought would be interesting to share with fellow AB-ers
--------------------------------------------------------------
“Leather (from the donor animal) is not homogenous. The texture (and hardness) changes from the hair side to the inside. If the tip is made of one piece of leather, you get a simple progression from hard to soft. The thin pieces of leather skived for lamination purposes have these same characteristics but when you stack them, to get the proper thickness, the final product is much more homogeneous. The randomness of grain from layer to layer when compiling the stacks, which you properly mention, probably also plays a part in the resulting superiority and performance characteristics.”
---------------------------------------------------------------
I think that, as usual and as expected, he got right to the heart of the matter.

I would add that the nature of the adhesive (and the process) involved in lamination also affect the often discussed pros and cons of performance when comparing the two overall categories (laminated vs. single-layered) with respect to "grab", glazing, mushrooming, longevity, change in hardness over time, chalk retention, etc.

Arnaldo



That's funny

Regular single layer tips aren't made that way, so I guess none of that means anything.

Royce
 

Shawn Armstrong

AZB deceased - stopped posting 5/13/2022
Silver Member
I had a chat with Jim Buss years ago. Before Jim was a cuemaker, he was a rocket scientist, so he knows a few things besides wood. Anyways, he told me about his dislike of layered tips, due to the exposed face, and all of the glue lines. I've found that layered tips are a little more consistent in hardness, but they don't hold chalk nearly as well as a standard one piece tip.
 

hang-the-9

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Have you tested this, or is it an impression? I can suggest a simple test method that removes "observation bias".

pj <- doubt it
chgo

A friend and I tested tips along with shafts to see how much spin a particular combination gets. Between the two of us we had maybe 6 different tip/shaft combos.

With a standard shaft and one peice tip, we were both getting to about A spot with the cueball, with a laminted tip and a LD shaft (his Predator 314-2) we got to B which was the most spin we could get, a few times we were able to get to the short rail not even touching the side with an LD shaft and laminated tip. A laminated tip with standard shaft and a LD shaft with a regular tip were in the middle of those, roughly in the same areas. I don't remember the exact ball positions but that was the test we played around with, use low right and see how far up-table we can swing the cueball to. We both shot with each combination 3-4-5 times and the area we could get to was consisten in all the tries.

picture.php
 

chefjeff

If not now...
Silver Member
Great post.
Why anyone would want to use a single-layer tip (Le Pro, et al) is beyond me. :)

Because a de-laminating tip sucks as it falls apart.

Also, the glues used glaze a tip after use.

Then there's the changing feel of the tip as it wears through multiple layers that each has a different affect on the hit at the same time, so judging those effects is nearly impossible. Nothing helps my game more than having a piece of my tip fly off onto the table during a shot. :rolleyes: The I get to adjust to a flat tip for a while...fun fun fun...

Add to that the cost, the increased problems with replacing one, and I found a one-piece tip superior to layered tips.

Now you know.

Jeff Livingston
 

Island Drive

Otto/Dads College Roommate/Cleveland Browns
Silver Member
I had a chat with Jim Buss years ago. Before Jim was a cuemaker, he was a rocket scientist, so he knows a few things besides wood. Anyways, he told me about his dislike of layered tips, due to the exposed face, and all of the glue lines. I've found that layered tips are a little more consistent in hardness, but they don't hold chalk nearly as well as a standard one piece tip.

Do snooker players use layered tips??
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
I had a chat with Jim Buss years ago. Before Jim was a cuemaker, he was a rocket scientist, so he knows a few things besides wood.
Oh, he was a scientist back in the old days of wooden rockets? lol

I've found that layered tips are a little more consistent in hardness, but they don't hold chalk nearly as well as a standard one piece tip.
I haven't used one-piece tips in years, but I've also never had any trouble with laminated tips holding chalk. I like 'em just because they hold shape longer and don't compress as much with use (more consistent hardness throughout their life).

pj
chgo
 

SmoothStroke

Swim for the win.
Silver Member
Learn how to hit the ball, play inside and outside the cue ball.
If you can't do that just use a broomstick, a tip will not matter.

This one grabs too much, this one not enough, YIKES.

All these overpriced tips, the latest and greatest best thing that's going to change your life.
This tip made my game jump up a ball might be the funniest thing I have ever read in pool.
I am going to design a tip made out of Swamp Azz, guaranteed to make you lucky and your game jump 7 balls, move over Shane, Swamp Tip Azz Sheriff is in Town.

If Mosconi used a Kamui he would not have miscued on # 527, wait, he didn't miscue,
Buy one of those Dream Catchers and hang it on your case.

I have over 5000 fishing lures, 4999 catch the fishermen, and 1 catches the fish.

Find the tip you like and buy 2000 of them, if the formula changes or they close shop, you have the tip you love for life, or go buy 4999 fishing lures 1 at a time for 30 years.

I can miss with any tip
 

Colin Colenso

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Do snooker players use layered tips??
I haven't heard of any of the snooker pros using them... perhaps some do, but I have tried them for snooker and English pool and I'm not a great fan.

Nearly all laminated tips play toward the hard end of the scale, and with smaller cue balls, not as much hardness is required I believe.

And miscues with the smaller balls tend to be a bigger problem, so hard layered tips, which I don't feel hold the chalk as well, lead to more miscues with the smaller balls especially.
 
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