Is Shane the best American ever at both

BeiberLvr

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Shane has the been the most consistent pool player (in the World...not just America) for the last 10 or so years.

The notion that there is a blemish on how good he is, because he hasn't won a World Title, is a bit ludicrous. When he eventually does win one, I guarantee you'll still have people doubting his greatness.
 

Bigb'scues

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Shane has the been the most consistent pool player (in the World...not just America) for the last 10 or so years.

The notion that there is a blemish on how good he is, because he hasn't won a World Title, is a bit ludicrous. When he eventually does win one, I guarantee you'll still have people doubting his greatness.


Nobody is doubting his "greatness" The question here....Is he the best American ever?.. He will (and does) already have a star studded HOF bound career. But every decade has its consistent dominant player. 1990s was Earl who has a much better resume then Shane BY FAR! So the answer as of now is NO..he is not YET the Greatest of all time.
 
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warfdiesel

Getting Better
Silver Member
I love these kind of threads that bring out all the old stories of guys back in the day. I wish I would have gotten into the game a lot sooner in my life. I have been told by tons of people where I live that my Grandfather was the local monster and could have been great on the big stage. Wish I would have got to play with him. They say he never lost for the cash here or anywhere he went. I guess he was on the road for awhile.

As for Shane he is for sure one of the best. I still like Alex as the best all around player, but don't ask me why or argue with me about it because I'm not as knowledgeable as most of you about the past. I just like his game and his attitude.
 

jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
Gold Member
Silver Member
Ok Jay, since this thread is about Shane let me put you on the spot: where would you rank Shane currently on the list of greatest American players ever?

In the modern era (new cloth) he is in the top five, along with Earl, Sigel, Buddy and Varner (Mizerak's best years were pre new cloth). It's impossible to rate these guys against players like Greenleaf, Mosconi, Lassiter and Worst. They were the greatest of their respective eras.

To go one more cut deeper - Earl may have been the greatest tournament 9-Ball player of all time. He made the 9' table look like a bar box. Like Shane he had the break down pat. He was the best of the best in his era. Buddy probably won more tournaments than anyone ever. He crisscrossed the Eastern U.S. playing nearly every week for over twenty years. He played in any tournament he could find with a $1,000 first prize or more, many of them on bar tables. These were not easy tourneys to win, with many very strong players in the field each week and Buddy won consistently. So much so that to see him finish second was a surprise. I once asked Buddy if he thinks he won 200 tournaments in his life and he responded, "Way more than that!" Sigel was virtually unbeatable if he got to the finals, at one time winning eleven final matches in a row (against guys like Earl, Buddy, Nick and Efren). All on big tables! No one will ever do that again. Sigel had far and away the best TPA (Accu-Stats rating) in every tournament he played in. He would make four to five errors per hundred shots and the next best were in the seven to eight range. Pat Fleming still has all these stats. Nick was player of the year in 1987 I believe, the year he won eleven major tournaments! He was the best player pound for pound that ever lived. Nick was fearless and not intimidated by anyone. He was quiet and not one to boast. When asked how he played against some great player Nick might say, "Go get him and we can play right now!" He beat Efren in a challenge match in the Philippines years before Earl's big match. Not many people talk about that match.
 
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PhilosopherKing

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
maybe he was caught in the moment, but danny d. said several times that shane is the best all-around player he's ever seen.

it's hard to imagine a living person who's seen more pool than danny.
 

vjmehra

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Shane has the been the most consistent pool player (in the World...not just America) for the last 10 or so years.

The notion that there is a blemish on how good he is, because he hasn't won a World Title, is a bit ludicrous. When he eventually does win one, I guarantee you'll still have people doubting his greatness.

For most sports fans the World Championship of their respective sport is the pinnacle, if a player does not win that its difficult to classify them as a great.

In snooker you could look at Jimmy White...he won major titles, but despite 6 World Championship finals, never won it (sorry not trying to drift off topic, its just a good example of the point I'm trying to illustrate).

He is (although still technically playing) remembered as the greatest to never win it.

Not a great player in his own right...all for the sake of a missed black.

If a player isn't mentally tough enough to win the ultimate prize they can not be the ultimate player, even if their career prize money and/or overall title count is far higher.
 

measureman

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
For most sports fans the World Championship of their respective sport is the pinnacle, if a player does not win that its difficult to classify them as a great.

In snooker you could look at Jimmy White...he won major titles, but despite 6 World Championship finals, never won it (sorry not trying to drift off topic, its just a good example of the point I'm trying to illustrate).

He is (although still technically playing) remembered as the greatest to never win it.

Not a great player in his own right...all for the sake of a missed black.

If a player isn't mentally tough enough to win the ultimate prize they can not be the ultimate player, even if their career prize money and/or overall title count is far higher.

In two different threads you have referred to snooker when everyone was talking about pool.
Good old American pool.
Two totally different games.
Snooker is like soccer
Pool is like foot ball.
Both played on fields with a ball,but different..
Personally I look at snooker and one pocket the same.
I don't like ether one.
 

vjmehra

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
In two different threads you have referred to snooker when everyone was talking about pool.
Good old American pool.
Two totally different games.
Snooker is like soccer
Pool is like foot ball.
Both played on fields with a ball,but different..
Personally I look at snooker and one pocket the same.
I don't like ether one.

In the other thread the OP said SVB was the best pocket billiards player, which is untrue, I mentioned snooker, Carom and Billiards to illustrate that point.

I was clarifying whether the OP actually meant American Pool, in which case it was a more relevant debate.

My point (on this thread) is still 100% valid, a player can not be great if they have not achieved success at the pinnacle of their chosen sport.

As I quite clearly stated, I used Jimmy White as an EXAMPLE as I felt it quite clearly demonstrated the point I was trying to make.
 

vjmehra

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
In the other thread the OP said SVB was the best pocket billiards player, which is untrue, I mentioned snooker, Carom and Billiards to illustrate that point.

I was clarifying whether the OP actually meant American Pool, in which case it was a more relevant debate.

My point (on this thread) is still 100% valid, a player can not be great if they have not achieved success at the pinnacle of their chosen sport.

As I quite clearly stated, I used Jimmy White as an EXAMPLE as I felt it quite clearly demonstrated the point I was trying to make.

For clarity...feel free to call my logic flawed....but I don't see the problem with using an example of another sport to explain my logic. Why should mentioning snooker be an issue...I could have chosen any sport, but there happened to be a very good snooker parallel here?
 

BeiberLvr

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
In the other thread the OP said SVB was the best pocket billiards player, which is untrue, I mentioned snooker, Carom and Billiards to illustrate that point.

I was clarifying whether the OP actually meant American Pool, in which case it was a more relevant debate.

My point (on this thread) is still 100% valid, a player can not be great if they have not achieved success at the pinnacle of their chosen sport.

As I quite clearly stated, I used Jimmy White as an EXAMPLE as I felt it quite clearly demonstrated the point I was trying to make.

Yes your logic is flawed and I'll explain.

At least 90% of snooker world champions are deserving. 2 weeks of long races will generally weed out any luck. Sure there's still some but not as much as in a short race
9 ball tournament.

Just look at this year when Albin Oushan beat Shane. Albin played very well and is a deserving champion, but to say he's great because he won and Shane's not is asinine. Furthermore if anyone truly believes that Albin is better than Shane because he has a trophy then I'm afraid they aren't mentally fit to discuss such matters.
 

vjmehra

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Yes your logic is flawed and I'll explain.

At least 90% of snooker world champions are deserving. 2 weeks of long races will generally weed out any luck. Sure there's still some but not as much as in a short race
9 ball tournament.

Just look at this year when Albin Oushan beat Shane. Albin played very well and is a deserving champion, but to say he's great because he won and Shane's not is asinine. Furthermore if anyone truly believes that Albin is better than Shane because he has a trophy then I'm afraid they aren't mentally fit to discuss such matters.

He was better on the day that counted. Part of being a great player is making it count when it really matters.

I'm not saying Albin is an all time great, merely that SVB can not be considered to be great without one.

That said, didn't SVB win a world 10-Ball, so it may be an irrelevant point anyway?
 

smashmouth

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
In the modern era (new cloth) he is in the top five, along with Earl, Sigel, Buddy and Varner (Mizerak's best years were pre new cloth). It's impossible to rate these guys against players like Greenleaf, Mosconi, Lassiter and Worst. They were the greatest of their respective eras.

To go one more cut deeper - Earl may have been the greatest tournament 9-Ball player of all time. He made the 9' table look like a bar box. Like Shane he had the break down pat. He was the best of the best in his era. Buddy probably won more tournaments than anyone ever. He crisscrossed the Eastern U.S. playing nearly every week for over twenty years. He played in any tournament he could find with a $1,000 first prize or more, many of them on bar tables. These were not easy tourneys to win, with many very strong players in the field each week and Buddy won consistently. So much so that to see him finish second was a surprise. I once asked Buddy if he thinks he won 200 tournaments in his life and he responded, "Way more than that!" Sigel was virtually unbeatable if he got to the finals, at one time winning eleven final matches in a row (against guys like Earl, Buddy, Nick and Efren). All on big tables! No one will ever do that again. Sigel had far and away the best TPA (Accu-Stats rating) in every tournament he played in. He would make four to five errors per hundred shots and the next best were in the seven to eight range. Pat Fleming still has all these stats. Nick was player of the year in 1987 I believe, the year he won eleven major tournaments! He was the best player pound for pound that ever lived. Nick was fearless and not intimidated by anyone. He was quiet and not one to boast. When asked how he played against some great player Nick might say, "Go get him and we can play right now!" He beat Efren in a challenge match in the Philippines years before Earl's big match. Not many people talk about that match.

Shane loses to Buddy Hall and Earl and Efren

Sigel's prime was untouchable Shane loses there

he beats Varner all day every day

not sure in what sport a non world champions gets crowned king
 

PoolBum

Ace in the side.
Silver Member
Can someone give me the list of people that beat Efren at anything?

I'm pretty sure that Sigel, Varner, and Strickland all have winning records against Efren in tournament 9-ball. And, I think I remember that Nick Varner travelled to the Philippines and beat Efren on his home turf.
 

BeiberLvr

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
He was better on the day that counted. Part of being a great player is making it count when it really matters.

I'm not saying Albin is an all time great, merely that SVB can not be considered to be great without one.

That said, didn't SVB win a world 10-Ball, so it may be an irrelevant point anyway?

He did, but it wasn't a WPA Sanctioned event.

But let's just be really honest, and drop all the semantics.

This most recent US Open had a field that was just as tough if not more so than any recent World 9 Ball field. Shane's win here is just as amazing, and the only reason you could consider saying Albin's win was impressive is because he beat Shane :)
 

jasonlaus

Rep for Smorg
Silver Member
He did, but it wasn't a WPA Sanctioned event.

But let's just be really honest, and drop all the semantics.

This most recent US Open had a field that was just as tough if not more so than any recent World 9 Ball field. Shane's win here is just as amazing, and the only reason you could consider saying Albin's win was impressive is because he beat Shane :)

But will Albin play Shane? Don' think so
 

smashmouth

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
He did, but it wasn't a WPA Sanctioned event.

But let's just be really honest, and drop all the semantics.

This most recent US Open had a field that was just as tough if not more so than any recent World 9 Ball field. Shane's win here is just as amazing, and the only reason you could consider saying Albin's win was impressive is because he beat Shane :)

valid point, wpa is just an acronym

however, tourney was missing world's number 1 player(Wu in many people's minds)

not Shane's fault but is what it is
 

jasonlaus

Rep for Smorg
Silver Member
For the love of God get somebody else in the booth!!!! Not a single person in the booth can run 5 balls, but she isn't afraid of Shane:bash:
 
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