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Unsportsmanlike Conduct Fouls - What does it cover ? - 07-06-2018, 07:30 AM

Hey All,

I Am current re-writing my league rules, and want to put some stuff in for Bad Behavior and such. I was thinking this could fall under Unsportsmanlike Conduct Fouls.

I know the catching of a ball going into a pocket for one foul.

are there other things that fall into this catagory ? and if so would they all be the same 15pt penalty ?

Hoping Mr Jewitt chimes in on this one, he's my rules Guru !!

Thanks in advance
-The Commish


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07-06-2018, 08:40 AM

The WPA rules include a listing of items that are considered unsportsmanlike, but those are just examples and not a complete list. For example, they do not include damaging the equipment. You can find the rules at http://wpapool.com

Be sure to look over the regulations there as well as they describe how the rules are implemented and some related matters.

Another good source of rules with explanations of rulings is on the CSI/BCAPL website. They were based on the WPA World Standardized Rules.

My column in the August issue of Billiards Digest is all about unsportsmanlike conduct.


Bob Jewett
SF Billiard Academy
  
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07-06-2018, 09:12 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
The WPA rules include a listing of items that are considered unsportsmanlike, but those are just examples and not a complete list. For example, they do not include damaging the equipment. You can find the rules at http://wpapool.com

Be sure to look over the regulations there as well as they describe how the rules are implemented and some related matters.

Another good source of rules with explanations of rulings is on the CSI/BCAPL website. They were based on the WPA World Standardized Rules.

My column in the August issue of Billiards Digest is all about unsportsmanlike conduct.

Thank you my friend Bob. This was the answer i was hoping for !!

Hope You Are Well !

-Steve


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07-06-2018, 09:43 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevekur1 View Post
Hey All,

I Am current re-writing my league rules, and want to put some stuff in for Bad Behavior and such. I was thinking this could fall under Unsportsmanlike Conduct Fouls.

I know the catching of a ball going into a pocket for one foul.

are there other things that fall into this catagory ? and if so would they all be the same 15pt penalty ?

Hoping Mr Jewitt chimes in on this one, he's my rules Guru !!

Thanks in advance
-The Commish
I know it's not what you asked for, but as a bit of trivia, I think the only professional player I've seen be hit by a 15 point penalty this way is the rather unlikely Efren Reyes! I believe it was either in Maine in a tournament he won, or in the 2000 world championships. He got trapped in the stack and rather than just nudge the ball with his tip for a foul, the tapped it with the side of his ferrule. It is almost entirely certain that he didn't know the rule. but he was penalized nevertheless. As I recall he had a substantial lead at the time and still won the match.
  
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07-07-2018, 09:27 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Straightpool_99 View Post
I know it's not what you asked for, but as a bit of trivia, I think the only professional player I've seen be hit by a 15 point penalty this way is the rather unlikely Efren Reyes! I believe it was either in Maine in a tournament he won, or in the 2000 world championships. He got trapped in the stack and rather than just nudge the ball with his tip for a foul, the tapped it with the side of his ferrule. It is almost entirely certain that he didn't know the rule. but he was penalized nevertheless. As I recall he had a substantial lead at the time and still won the match.
That is correct, I remember seeing that. I think thatís so that he didnít know the rule.

Steve


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07-07-2018, 10:52 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Straightpool_99 View Post
I know it's not what you asked for, but as a bit of trivia, I think the only professional player I've seen be hit by a 15 point penalty this way is the rather unlikely Efren Reyes! I believe it was either in Maine in a tournament he won, or in the 2000 world championships. He got trapped in the stack and rather than just nudge the ball with his tip for a foul, the tapped it with the side of his ferrule. It is almost entirely certain that he didn't know the rule. but he was penalized nevertheless. As I recall he had a substantial lead at the time and still won the match.
It was in the 2000 US Open 14.1 Championship at the Roseland Ballroom in NYC -- Reyes vs. Dallas West. Efren won 150-1 (including a run of 141) despite the penalty.
  
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07-07-2018, 01:29 PM

If a person accidentally hits an object ball with their hand, its a foul.

But if in that same turn, they hit another ball, is it considered a second foul or a continuation of the first foul.

In the above situation suppose someone were playing safe and failed the position but with the foul its fixed. Since there is no ball in hand rule, should the incoming player be allowed to say the opponent is on two? ((to prevent sleight of hand safeties).

I don't have access to Bobs article in BD. Hope its not a repost.
  
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07-07-2018, 03:00 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
The WPA rules include a listing of items that are considered unsportsmanlike, but those are just examples and not a complete list. For example, they do not include damaging the equipment. You can find the rules at http://wpapool.com

Be sure to look over the regulations there as well as they describe how the rules are implemented and some related matters.

Another good source of rules with explanations of rulings is on the CSI/BCAPL website. They were based on the WPA World Standardized Rules.

My column in the August issue of Billiards Digest is all about unsportsmanlike conduct.
Note that both the Rules and the Regulations talk about referee discretion when it comes to unsportsmanlike conduct.

The Rules say: "The normal penalty for unsportsmanlike conduct is the same as for a serious foul, but the referee may impose a penalty depending on his judgment of the conduct. Among other penalties possible are a warning; a standard-foul penalty, which will count as part of a threefoul sequence if applicable; a serious-foul penalty; loss of a rack, set or match; ejection from the competition possibly with forfeiture of all prizes, trophies and standings points."

The Regulations say: "The rules and regulations give the referee and other officials considerable latitude in penalizing unsportsmanlike conduct. Several factors should be considered in such decisions, including previous conduct, previous warnings, how serious the offense is, and information that the players may have been given at the Playersí Meeting at the start of the tournament. In addition, the level of competition may be considered since players at the top levels can be expected to be fully familiar with the rules and regulations, while relative beginners may be unfamiliar with how the rules are normally applied."

All this is well and good, but when there is no referee, the matter of resolving the penalty question might become quite a bit more difficult.

Take, for example, the common case of a player in a straight pool match who, unfortunately for him, has sent the cue ball directly toward a pocket mouth. In this hypothetical, he decides to catch the ball with his hand before it drops, or to block it with his cue stick tip before it drops. Should there be any penalty, other than the one that would have ensued had he simply let the cue ball drop?

Among the examples of unsportsmanlike conduct cited by the Rules is this one: "using equipment inappropriately." The Rules also say: "It is a foul to touch, move or change the path of the cue ball except when it is in hand or by the normal tip-to-ball forward stroke contact of a shot. The shooter is responsible for the equipment he controls at the table . . .. If such a foul is accidental, it is a standard foul, but if it is intentional, it is 6.17 Unsportsmanlike Conduct."

For a real world example of a player blocking the cue ball from entering a pocket (and causing it to go off the table!), see this match between Corey Dueul and Mike Dechaine (which includes other "goings on" and is quite entertaining): https://youtu.be/XqDVtRcZiSY. It appears that those two players decided, without discussion, that the penalty for the intentional foul committed by Corey, which by Rule was unsportsmanlike conduct, should be nothing beyond the one stroke penalty that would have been earned had Corey simply allowed the cue ball to drop into the side pocket.
  
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07-07-2018, 07:16 PM

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Originally Posted by Seth C. View Post
... It appears that those two players decided, without discussion, that the penalty for the intentional foul committed by Corey, which by Rule was unsportsmanlike conduct, should be nothing beyond the one stroke penalty that would have been earned had Corey simply allowed the cue ball to drop into the side pocket.
At a US Open 14.1 in CT, they announced at the players' meeting that such interference with a scratch would be a 15-point penalty. I do not recall any further details, but I think they are required. It is probably not a "shoot an opening break shot" situation. Where does the cue ball go if the fouler picked it up to hand to his opponent? Behind the line? What if the ball might not have scratched and there is a shot from the jaws of that pocket but not from behind the line?

There is a youtube video of a snooker match in which Ronnie O'Sullivan is about to go in-off (as those crazy Limeys say) and he deflects the cue ball with his stick just before it would have scratched -- I mean, gone in-off -- to help the referee not have to fish for the ball. The ruling was that the incoming player had to play from the spot Ronnie left the cue ball.

The WPA rules allow the ref to decide on a penalty, such as a warning for a clueless newbie or a forfeit for a player who has already done the same thing twice and was disruptive both times.


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07-08-2018, 09:03 AM

For our tournaments in which I serve as the TD, a player sticking their hand in a pocket to stop what they think is the CB headed towards that pocket is penalized with ball-in-hand for their opponent, regardless of whether or not the CB actually would have gone in the pocket, or whether their hand ever touches the CB. This rule prevents players from the very bad habit of even thinking about placing their hand in the pocket - if they know it results in an automatic ball-in-hand. Those players new to our tournaments, often find out this rule the hard way, even if they never touch the cue ball, by having it enforced on them by their opponent, and confirmed by myself - the TD.

Last edited by ChrisinNC; 07-08-2018 at 04:17 PM. Reason: edit
  
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07-08-2018, 05:07 PM

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For our tournaments in which I serve as the TD, a player sticking their hand in a pocket to stop what they think is the CB headed towards that pocket is penalized with ball-in-hand for their opponent, regardless of whether or not the CB actually would have gone in the pocket, or whether their hand ever touches the CB. This rule prevents players from the very bad habit of even thinking about placing their hand in the pocket - if they know it results in an automatic ball-in-hand. Those players new to our tournaments, often find out this rule the hard way, even if they never touch the cue ball, by having it enforced on them by their opponent, and confirmed by myself - the TD.
Some seating arrangements obstruct the view. I've seen players block my view and have wondered if they moved it or not. Sure I can move around to see what happens, but that took me a few opponents to get wise on. There are shots where the cue travels a great distance and the player freezes at the table, I would also have to travel a good bit to see the action.
  
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07-10-2018, 01:50 PM

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Originally Posted by justnum View Post
If a person accidentally hits an object ball with their hand, its a foul.

But if in that same turn, they hit another ball, is it considered a second foul or a continuation of the first foul.

In the above situation suppose someone were playing safe and failed the position but with the foul its fixed. Since there is no ball in hand rule, should the incoming player be allowed to say the opponent is on two? ((to prevent sleight of hand safeties).

I don't have access to Bobs article in BD. Hope its not a repost.
Somebody can correct me but I believe that in the event of multiple fouls on a single shot you only count the most severe of those--in your example either. This should only count for one foul.
  
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