Using outside english to help make cut shots

Bob Jewett said:

dr_dave said:

Bob Jewett said:

You don't have to have perfect gearing outside for this technique to work. It only has to be enough outside that the balls are gearing by the end of the ball-ball contact. In that case, the amount of friction between the balls stops being a factor in the cut angle.

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I don't agree with this statement in general. Consider an outside-english cut shot where the CB and OB would normally gear together during the hit (after sliding ceases) If the amount of outside were different, it is possible the balls would not gear before separation. In this case, cling/skid/kick would definitely cause more throw than normal (because added friction does make a difference when the balls don't normally gear together). Only when the amount of outside english is very close to the gearing amount do small changes in the amount of outside result in the same changes in throw (because the CB and OB would gear together before separation regardless of the extra friction or not).

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What I was hoping to say, more briefly:

Skid/cling/kick can only occur on shots where for normal friction the cue ball is still slipping on the object ball at the end of ball-to-ball contact. If you add extra friction, there will be more throw than for a normal shot.

A conclusion from this is that there is a range of spins close to gearing that can't produce skids. The throw for this range is both to the left and right of the CB-OB line of centers at contact.

A further conclusion is that stun shots without side spin up to about a 20-degree cut will not skid. This is because that is the range for which the balls will achieve gearing by the end of contact for normal values of ball-ball friction.

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Well stated.

I agree 100%.

Thank you for clarifying,
Dave

Patrick Johnson said:

Me too - except for the snooker part.


Sure - it's the shots that don't need spin for shape that I question its use.
I’ve tried to make a point of not over-spinning...
...I was shooting a 9-ball for the match once...a player was sitting right in my line..............
...he was betting on me...half-ball cut...cue ball at a distance....
..he said after the match “I couldn’t see you putting any spin on the ball...but whitey went like it had right english...three rails.”
...you don’t need much spin to alter an angle a lot of the time.
pj
chgo

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BTW...I still owe you big-time for helping me understand gearing english and not to use
too much...if it’s spinning too much, it doesn’t grab the ball....explained the odd miss I’ve
had over the years....:bow-down:

Patrick Johnson said:

Impossible. For example, to give the CB "instant natural roll" you have to hit it with 80% of maximum follow. That amount of follow can't be transferred to an OB even with a straight shot and maximum draw on the CB.

What Rempe's actually seeing is the effect of eliminating throw with outside "gearing" english - the "turning over" he sees without it is actually side spin transferred to the OB.

pj
chgo

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Rempe has a funny way of using certain terms. He was more talking about the ob sliding before achieving natural roll toward the pocket. Whether technically this is a skid or cling, I don't know. I'm sure you are correct, technically, about the physics of what is happening.

I think people are overstating the amount of uncertainty introduced with a tiny amount of outside english. I don't think Rempe would be teaching it if it were strictly an advanced technique guaranteed to screw up anyone but a national champion. I think it's probably a more useful technique to know when the balls aren't so clean.

Dan White said:

I think it's probably a more useful technique to know when the balls aren't so clean.

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Agreed. Here is how I summarize simple answers to the following question on the outside and gearing english resource page:

Should I use outside english to reduce the effects of throw (i.e., “spin the ball in”)?

No, especially if you are good at judging and compensating for throw and you are not good at adjusting your aim for squirt and swerve.

Yes, if conditions are clingy (old, dirty balls with lots of chalk marks) and/or you are good at adjusting your aim for squirt and swerve.

These are the short answers. The long answer is on the resource page.

Regards,
Dave

I use it to pocket a ball when I'm being lazy or trying to have a little fun shot where the spin throws it past the pocket point. Otherwise I only use outside to get position, generally across the table. I feel like what your asking is a "it depends" type of question.

I almost always use low outside for back cutting a ball. For whatever reason I naturally see the angle so much better. I’ve had to actively practice back cuts with center and top. Slow rolling is the worst lol...I bet I could over cut to 1 diamond down from the pocket 1,000 times in a row with a slow roll

I guess there is no correct answer here. You have to try these things out with enough time to get used to it before you will know. For my first year or so playing I strictly watched top players (I dodged videos of some guy named Shane Van Boening for the first few weeks since I didn’t know wth he was...I had watched ESPN pool back in the day and I was looking for Strickland, Archer, Busti, Efren, Davenport, korr, Fisher...the usual suspects from back then. Eventually I gave in since 80% of the videos that showed up were of SVB...Glad I did) so I only watched pros play. I didn’t read anything or talk to anyone that played pool, I just tried to do whatever they did and in similar fashion, with occasional tidbits from the commentators about English in particular. I loved when I got an old match with a Buddy Hall demonstration/ explanation of a shot in between racks.

I think that formative year or so really helped me out. I watched pool while I ate, sat on the throne, while stuff was loading on my computer at work, while I was playing, driving, literally all the time immersed in pro pool and in a year I was a pretty solid apa 6 level. Just watching and mimicking with no warnings or conflicting advice, aiming systems etc. Just figure out what works to get the job done. Then I started to branch out and learn, joined a league for a bit, got some Dr Dave dvds, started looking for lessons (where you at Mr. Scott Lee and Tom Wirth?)

My drawn out point is that pool is crazy... and you should probably try to go all the way. Don’t accept that pros are pros and do things that you can’t. I don’t play at pro speed yet, maybe never will but f yeah I’ll get as close as I can with a job and kid.

Dan White said:

Rempe has a funny way of using certain terms. He was more talking about the ob sliding before achieving natural roll toward the pocket.

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Yeah, that's what I assume he meant, and what I think he's mistaken about - the OB will slide as much with outside spin as with center ball, just in a slightly different direction. What changes visibly is whether/how much the OB rotates sideways - I'm guessing that's the visible difference Rempe sees.

Whether technically this is a skid or cling, I don't know.

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The OB sliding at first on every shot is normal, not skid or cling. Skid/cling mostly affects OB throw direction and side spin.

pj
chgo

pt109 said:

BTW...I still owe you big-time for helping me understand gearing english and not to use
too much...if it’s spinning too much, it doesn’t grab the ball....explained the odd miss I’ve
had over the years....:bow-down:

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You mean people read the stuff posted here?

Ruh roh...

pj <- that changes everything
chgo

newcuer said:

Trying to understand the idea/benefit of using outside english to help make cut shots. I have never done this, but I know this was a popular strategy by many players. I understand the effects of cue ball induced throw, but I have always just cut the shot a little more the greater the cut angle is. I never really understood the logic behind using outside english to help make a cut shot, as I always figured its just best to avoid side spin unless cue ball positioning calls for it.


I'm just wondering what others thoughts about this are and if they subscribe to this theory or not...

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Never used it to help make the shot, just to shoot the shot the same every time. I aim at the contact point on the OB that puts it in the hole or a part of the hole if I need to cheat the pocket a little. CIT is real and it varies depending on what pool hall, bar, etc.. you're playing in. Some places just always have dirty balls. Instead of worrying how thin or thick to cut it depending on the cut angle as you say I just aim at the contact point and use a little 'halping' english, as one pro calls it, to counteract the CIT. I'm not going to use it to the extent that it takes me out of line but most of that can be controlled by speed

newcuer said:

Trying to understand the idea/benefit of using outside english to help make cut shots. I have never done this, but I know this was a popular strategy by many players. I understand the effects of cue ball induced throw, but I have always just cut the shot a little more the greater the cut angle is. I never really understood the logic behind using outside english to help make a cut shot, as I always figured its just best to avoid side spin unless cue ball positioning calls for it.


I'm just wondering what others thoughts about this are and if they subscribe to this theory or not...

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When we were first playing / learning pool, the first time most of experimented with spin was using outside spin on a cut shot, which I feel is why most players are most comfortable with outside as opposed to inside. In the majority of players, inside spin was the last spin we felt comfortable using and perfecting, and honestly some fairly good players I find are still not comfortable using inside spin in a pressure situation.

For myself, particularly on a relatively sharp cut shot, I've always preferred inside spin (if I have a choice in regards to where the cue ball goes) for the simple reason that when you are down on the ball, when applying inside spin your shaft can actually align with a spot on the side/edge of the object ball. Whereas, if you are applying outside spin on a sharp cut shot, you actually have to aim the shaft at a point out in space - not even on the object ball but somewhere outside the edge of the object ball, which I find much harder to guess where that spot is.

If using outside English allows you to make a cut that you otherwise couldn’t make then use outside
English. Why the hell you wouldn't, or why you would use inside English, don’t make a lot of sense.

Swighey said:

If using outside English allows you to make a cut that you otherwise couldn’t make then use outside
English.

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What kind of shot is that?

pj
chgo

The use of Outside English/Spin isn't limited to the same aim as a center ball shot. Advanced Players can aim these shots thicker and gear the object ball in the pocket and kill cue ball speed at a great variety of distance between the Object Ball and the Pocket. In just a few times at the table practicing this you'll find that you can hold the cue ball better using outside spin like this than you would ever believe and the amount of throw on the ball is very predictable for shots that range from full hit to 1/3 hit. The thinner the hit the less effect. The stroke speed is also important. You wouldn't shoot these shots hard about medium speed but then watch the cue ball (that would have been lost to speed in many cases) run about 20 to 30 percent less travel. The place you pick out to do this is also a reference for other things since the thick on the shot spot is so predictable to find. The thicker on the shot spot accepts more of the energy of the Cue Ball killing the speed. I play a player that routinely does this and his Cue Ball work is excellent. So much in fact that I had to learn it to keep up with him. In fact I know two players that do it. I think there are a lot of players that do it but little has been written about it. It's just one of the things great players can learn to do. The same thing with the 1/2 tip of opposing Inside that kills speed off object ball and the rail. These cue tip manipulations aren't for every shot but if you know them then break them out when you know you'll lose the cue ball and continue your run instead of getting dicey position for the next shot.

Dan White said:

I asked two HOF players about this subject and here's what they said:

Jim Rempe - Put a small amount of english on every shot, like 1/5 of a tip or less. He said this will prevent the ball from "turning over." What he meant is that when you hit a cut shot without english if you watch carefully often the object ball will skid before it rolls, or turns over. If you put that touch of english on the shot this does not happen and the ball rolls right off contact toward the pocket. I think this happens more with dirty balls and not so much with clean ones.

Mike Sigel - answered like this... If you set up an easy shot into the side pocket and I get $50,000 if I pocket the ball, I'm putting outside english on the shot every time!

On the other hand, Mark Wilson in his book, Play Great Pool, advises against outside english because it complicates shots unnecessarily.

I think the difference is that Rempe/Sigel are talking about very small amounts that effectively do not introduce much complexity to the shot, and ultimately provide more benefits than drawbacks. I go back and forth between the two methods as I haven't decided 100% for myself. I can say for sure that the balls do "turn over" when they are not clean. I also do use a little outside when the cb and ob are close together because the cue ball often stuns before achieving natural roll if you don't hit high follow. I do this to prevent a stun shot in which throw will be greater, and unexpected.

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I know an old school player that does this to counter act throw.

goettlicher said:

Outside English is an option or a tradeoff. Both part of the game.

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Said like a true politician, but right on the money.

td873 said:

Disregarding needing english for shape, outside english is just one tool to pocket the ball. You need a full toolbox to play at the top level. But you shouldn't exclusively rely on it.

As it turns out, Barry Stark just did a video on this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dfo_2qAXnaw

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I agree with this.

Bob Jewett said:

Outside english is useful for reducing skids and partial skids. I think the usefulness of outside depends on the level of the player and how often skids occur. If an intermediate player misses 15% of their shots and the ball skids 1% of the time, outside might reduce the skids to 0.1% and increase the misses to 20%.

For a Sigel, Varner or Rempe who misses 2% of the time, getting rid of the bad contacts can give a significant benefit if it doesn't screw up their pocketing percentage. I think this is what Sigel was getting at. A skid on a simple shot can make it miss. A little outside is not an aiming problem for him so his basic pocketing percentage will not be reduced.

You don't have to have perfect gearing outside for this technique to work. It only has to be enough outside that the balls are gearing by the end of the ball-ball contact. In that case, the amount of friction between the balls stops being a factor in the cut angle.

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I agree with this but there are other reasons to use the outside english. I do agree with your estimation of the percentages.

pt109 said:

I spin a lot...even at snooker.

Early in my playing...I used a lot of center ball....then I realized....
..side spin complicates a shot...but not avoiding side spin allows you to make runs with
relatively easy shots...the better I got at position, the more I spun.

Spinning made me very particular about my choice of cues and tips....
...it’s like learning another language...but the more you use it, the better you get.

Pack play at snooker and straight pool...you use side spin to hold onto a ball...
...or to slide off it.

Joe Davis said of the great Aussie player, Eddie Charlton...”He never won a world
championship because of a reluctance to use “side”.

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Spot on here.