how are ya'll doing in league ?

justadub · Jul 16, 2014

PINKLADY said:
i know yáll have posted this before, and i remember that most prorate payouts by # matches played. but several people on 3rd place team were upset w/ their Captain's payout last night, cause they'd started running numbers & stats. 7 players. 2 are ranked a 2, and balance are 4's or 6's. the 2's never won. the balance carried the team into 3rd.

payout was $45/ea, by matches played.
if it had been prorated by points, those two 2's, would have only received $25. when the better players realized that those two were getting a 100% increase, they were a little irritated.

so now everyone is asking if they should payout by points. wasn't it DaveM who maybe paid this way?

While I understand your frustrations with all this, I can't imagine playing under this sort of arrangement. It would make it very uncomfortable, and take away from our sense of "team".

We're all in it together on our team. Many times a player loses, and tries to apologize to the team for it. We won't have it, there's nothing to be sorry for. They tried to win, it didn't happen that time.

For us, its supposed to be fun first. Yes, we want to win and work very hard at making that happen. I can't imagine my taking more from the payout than my teammates, and I went 11-0 last session...in our lowly APA division, we split just under $1000 for first place last session. Eight ways, equally.

If that's how you and yours need to do it to make everyone happy, more power to you. All I know is I couldn't do it that way with my team. Maybe we just aren't serious enough, I suppose.

Celophanewrap · Jul 16, 2014

justadub said:
While I understand your frustrations with all this, I can't imagine playing under this sort of arrangement. It would make it very uncomfortable, and take away from our sense of "team".

We're all in it together on our team. Many times a player loses, and tries to apologize to the team for it. We won't have it, there's nothing to be sorry for. They tried to win, it didn't happen that time.

For us, its supposed to be fun first. Yes, we want to win and work very hard at making that happen. I can't imagine my taking more from the payout than my teammates, and I went 11-0 last session...in our lowly APA division, we split just under $1000 for first place last session. Eight ways, equally.

If that's how you and yours need to do it to make everyone happy, more power to you. All I know is I couldn't do it that way with my team. Maybe we just aren't serious enough, I suppose.

Agreed 100%. I would think it would have to be equal cuts. Even though your lower rated players may never win a match, without them your higher rated players don't play. So how many points do you get when you don't play? Everyone does their part. Isn't that sort of equivalent of not wanting to pay offensive linemen because they don't score touchdowns? Ask any running back or quarterback - you just try and score without them

leto1776 · Jul 16, 2014

Maybe it's just me, but shouldn't league drama have it's own thread, and leave this thread to be about actual progress in league play?

Oh, and equal payouts for all teammates. Pool may be an individual's game, but league play requires all team members. Without the lower handicaps, the higher level players can't play anyway. So even if the 1s and 2s don't win, they're still doing their part in helping the team win by allowing the higher levels to play under the cap.

DAVE_M · Jul 16, 2014

PINKLADY said:
i know yáll have posted this before, and i remember that most prorate payouts by # matches played. but several people on 3rd place team were upset w/ their Captain's payout last night, cause they'd started running numbers & stats. 7 players. 2 are ranked a 2, and balance are 4's or 6's. the 2's never won. the balance carried the team into 3rd.

payout was $45/ea, by matches played.
if it had been prorated by points, those two 2's, would have only received $25. when the better players realized that those two were getting a 100% increase, they were a little irritated.

so now everyone is asking if they should payout by points. wasn't it DaveM who maybe paid this way?

We prorated everything by matches won. That particular league payed out $5 per individual match win (The weekly league night fee was $5). At the end of the league, each team was payed out per their number of overall wins. To keep everything fair, teams would pay out each member per their individual wins. So, if you never one a match in the session, you were not payed. However, there were also payouts based on team rank. First through third received a large payout, then 4th place through X received a certain payout, based on the total number of teams per session (capped at 16 teams).

One session, IIRC, we were in 7th place and were payed a large sum. There were 13 total teams at that time and it resulted in a 26 week session

I ended up winning MVP with something around 22 wins and 4 losses. So I was payed $110 for my wins. Since we were in 7th place and in the money, I also received some extra cash. I don't really recall how much, but it was less than $50 after we split it equally. IMO, this form of payout encourages winning and discourages players just showing up to kill time on a week night.

Banks · Jul 16, 2014

Ugh. Played a friend last night, 5-3 race. I couldn't quite get comfortable the entire match. I'd make a couple of nice shots, played a couple nice safeties and then poof. Pooched a couple of shots, miscued a couple of times. Then he snapped the 8 to finish it 3-2. Blah. Oh, almost forgot.. we were in first place about 4 weeks ago in 8b. We just lost 2-12 in our Civil War match last night. We have averaged 2 points in the past 4 weeks... most likely putting us in last. Easy come, easy go. :speechless:

Hopefully I can redeem myself a little bit tonight in masters.

Only two more weeks to go after tonight and I'm looking forward to it. :thud:

leto1776 · Jul 16, 2014

How do you like Masters, Banks? I'd love to try it, even though I know most of the people it would attract would kick my ass. Any idea on the minimum amount of teams required for a working division?

krupa · Jul 16, 2014

PINKLADY said:
i know yáll have posted this before, and i remember that most prorate payouts by # matches played. but several people on 3rd place team were upset w/ their Captain's payout last night, cause they'd started running numbers & stats. 7 players. 2 are ranked a 2, and balance are 4's or 6's. the 2's never won. the balance carried the team into 3rd.

payout was $45/ea, by matches played.
if it had been prorated by points, those two 2's, would have only received $25. when the better players realized that those two were getting a 100% increase, they were a little irritated.

so now everyone is asking if they should payout by points. wasn't it DaveM who maybe paid this way?

1. Pay out by matches played.
2. If you're the low man on a team and your teammates are talking like this, find another team.
3. If this isn't your team, stay out of it and let 'em fight it out on their own.

Banks · Jul 16, 2014

leto1776 said:
How do you like Masters, Banks? I'd love to try it, even though I know most of the people it would attract would kick my ass. Any idea on the minimum amount of teams required for a working division?

It's pretty good so far. I definitely like the idea of getting out of there early. The minimum, from what I know, is 4 teams. 3 people play a race to 7. We use 2 tables at a time, so we're done quickly. We have 2 teams of A/Master level players, a team of 7/8's and another team of 5's. The 5's are usually far back and even the 7/8's get beat up regularly. If you're fine with paying $10(or whatever your area charges) to get a "lesson", have at it.

I had fun this past year and look forward to going to Vegas for teams for the first time, but afterwards we're going to disband the team and take some time off.

nine_ball6970 · Jul 16, 2014

PINKLADY said:
i know yáll have posted this before, and i remember that most prorate payouts by # matches played. but several people on 3rd place team were upset w/ their Captain's payout last night, cause they'd started running numbers & stats. 7 players. 2 are ranked a 2, and balance are 4's or 6's. the 2's never won. the balance carried the team into 3rd.

payout was $45/ea, by matches played.
if it had been prorated by points, those two 2's, would have only received $25. when the better players realized that those two were getting a 100% increase, they were a little irritated.

so now everyone is asking if they should payout by points. wasn't it DaveM who maybe paid this way?

Some additional comments on why prorating by matches played is the better option. Everyone puts in the same amount of money to play each night. Doesn't matter if they win or lose. The higher players want more money, but fail to realize they need the 2's to play to make the numbers work. It is a team effort, win or lose. About finishing 3rd, the only player who can say anything is one who went undefeated. You expect better players to have a higher winning percentage. If you start paying out by points, the lower players should probably find a different team. That really screws them over because they will have a lower win percentage on average. Especially if the captain is throwing them against 6s and 7s.

My view in APA was I never expected a win out of a 2, but if they happened to win then that was just a bonus. I tried to match them up with someone they could beat if they were playing well. I think a 2 who wins close to 50% is a valuable asset and you should be happy with any wins you get out of them

PINKLADY · Jul 16, 2014

i really appreciate all of yáll's help, cause you know League is brand new to us here. everyone is trying to learn how to matchup, payout, get ranked, etc etc. most of us are age-old friends, so we can all speak freely amongst ourselves. the LO came out of nowhere.

there's been tons of disorganization & everyone is trying to learn. but when the payouts changed last week - everyone got serious for answers, cause it's about mistrust. my team's players heard the 3rd place team talking about points payout, and commented to me. hence my question to yáll, cause i don't know. but yes, it's supposed to be fun.

yáll are great, as usual. thanks for your help!

lorider · Jul 16, 2014

PINKLADY said:
sorry about your game last night -

we got $535. 1st & 3rd ate 8%; we ate 13%. our team's payout was based on # matches played/payed; not points. we had 10 players to run prorata, including Scott Lee who was my alternate.

the LO said he got reamed by Alvarez, and that i'd told him that i got his number from the LO. i clarified that real quick & reminded the LO that i told him i was going to make the call. apparently they didn't discuss the $200 for 4th....i never got a straight answer from him, but he asked me 4 times who gave me Frank's #. the LO reiterated that because UPA's website had posted, he HAD to make the extra payout. the LO & i agreed that the $200 should have come out of Frank's $900 pocket, technically.

the LO said that he's only making 8%, cause balance 25% goes into the Vegas fund, & he's close to having 20 teams for next session in 2 weeks & can qualify for Vegas. he said that he'd makeup the difference on $400 UPA ("up to $1000, cause that's what APA pays"), to cover plane & hotel for a week. i suggested he notify Frank, that he had 20 teams/100 players for 8B, coming to Vegas & to wire $40K - and let us know if it happens....

i'm out. (i'm just a standby alternate) 2 more on our team are out & possibly a 3rd. 2 more from another team (3rd place) are out. 2 other entire teams apparently quit last THU. it'll be interesting in 2 wks. (not that i'll be there!)

pinky ...i am just gonna have to be blunt with you.

your post is exactly why i do not like to play in any league that hands out money. i happen to be playing in one now but i will get to that in a minute.

i have played in 5 money leagues and they all had problems that you do not face in regular leagues. the problems always arise over how to split the money.

1. some want to pro rate based on how many games they played.

its a good way to pay out because they paid to play that night , but.....what about the guys who did not play as much due to how the teams matches up yet were there every night ? is not their time away from their families worth any thing ? they spent gas to get there even though they were not picked to play.

2. paying by how many you won.

i can see that because their wins helped you to finish where you did. but.... what about the lower level players who paid in just as much as the higher levels ?

3. some people get way too serious about the game when money is involved. even i have been guilty of that. example.... one night a guy made an obvious foul sinking the 8 ball to win the match.. i mean it was so obvious stevie wonder coulda seen it. his win knocked s out of play offs. he lied about fouling which really pissed me off. 2 team mates had to drag me outa his face. crap like that in apa or napa never bother me cause i am just playing for fun.

4. some people just put too much pressure on theirselves not wanting to let their team mates down. some team mates also get really pissed if you have a bad night causing the team to lose money.

5. money causes friends to be enemies . friends will get together and they all agree at the start of the session on how to split the money. when it comes time to split ....you will always have one or two guys that aint happy ....pick any number of reasons above why they ain;t happy.

when i was captain of a money team here is what i decided and every one agreed.

every one paid the same amount every week whether you played or not . under this system every one had the same amount invested and got the same amount paid to them.

problem was... people saying they did not have the money that week or did not show up. i would have to pay their share and get it back from them the following week. needless to say it was a pain in the ass to keep up with who owed me what.at the end of the session a couple still owed me money and i took it out of their share.

i got tired of the hassles and quit money leagues until a few weeks ago.

a friend wanted me to join his team and i said no. he kept asking.... i had been asking him to rejoin my sun nite apa he had dropped off last session.

well i made a deal. i joined his team and he rejoins my team next session.

here is how this team handles the money situation. we have a sponsor who pays the weekly fee every week. at the end of the session he takes back whatever he paid in off the top. any money left over is split evenly amongst all the players. if for some reason we don't get back what he paid in we all pay him back the difference in an even amount. it seems like a pretty fair way to do it.

lorider · Jul 16, 2014

PINKLADY said:
i really appreciate all of yáll's help, cause you know League is brand new to us here. everyone is trying to learn how to matchup, payout, get ranked, etc etc. most of us are age-old friends, so we can all speak freely amongst ourselves. the LO came out of nowhere.

there's been tons of disorganization & everyone is trying to learn. but when the payouts changed last week - everyone got serious for answers, cause it's about mistrust. my team's players heard the 3rd place team talking about points payout, and commented to me. hence my question to yáll, cause i don't know. but yes, it's supposed to be fun.

yáll are great, as usual. thanks for your help!

you posted while i was typing lol.:grin:

PINKLADY · Jul 16, 2014

lorider said:
....5. money causes friends to be enemies . friends will get together and they all agree at the start of the session on how to split the money. when it comes time to split ....you will always have one or two guys that aint happy ....pick any number of reasons above why they ain;t happy....

i got tired of the hassles and quit money leagues until a few weeks ago.

this resonates. i think you nailed it. everyone is so uninformed; frustrated, yet trying to learn, while winging-it cause the LO's hardly present, and they're really invested cause they're having to finally pay for table time. add a shot-clock & 10 min late-show rule cause they're tired of waiting 2-4hrs for a match. plus the dangling invisible Vegas Finals carrot. it's just not fun anymore for any of us.

thank you.

krupa · Jul 17, 2014

Played NAPA laggers choice last night.

I haven't played much in the past couple weeks because I was on vacation and I don't drag my girlfriend to poolrooms when we're on vacation. I did have some time on some pretty bad equipment but I don't think that counts much.

All that is my pre-loaded excuse of losing a 5-5 race 5-3 (in 10-ball). I actually played pretty well for not having practiced. I gave up a one game by missing a fairly easy combination on the 10 and leaving my opponent a straight-forward carom on the 10. A few other mental lapses and that's all it took.

DAVE_M · Jul 17, 2014

Still moving stuff into the new house, but I had a chance to get out and play in our weekly 9-ball match. Our team is in 1st place again, with hopes of winning this session! I played first and they put up an SL4 on me. I broke the first rack and scratched, which resulted in the 4 getting a few points up on me. Towards the end, I was up 31 to 15, IIRC, and I let up somehow. He came back to 30/37 and scratched the next break. I lucked out with that one.

Not bad for taking nearly a month off, but definitely not great either. My stroke was fine, my position was fine, but being away from the table has messed with my vision. I broke and ran two racks in practice, before the match, but missed many easy bank shots and simple safeties during the match.

Diogenes · Jul 17, 2014

DAVE_M said:
We prorated everything by matches won. That particular league payed out $5 per individual match win (The weekly league night fee was $5). At the end of the league, each team was payed out per their number of overall wins. To keep everything fair, teams would pay out each member per their individual wins. So, if you never one a match in the session, you were not payed. However, there were also payouts based on team rank. First through third received a large payout, then 4th place through X received a certain payout, based on the total number of teams per session (capped at 16 teams).

One session, IIRC, we were in 7th place and were payed a large sum. There were 13 total teams at that time and it resulted in a 26 week session I ended up winning MVP with something around 22 wins and 4 losses. So I was payed $110 for my wins. Since we were in 7th place and in the money, I also received some extra cash. I don't really recall how much, but it was less than $50 after we split it equally. IMO, this form of payout encourages winning and discourages players just showing up to kill time on a week night.

Here's my take about this form of payout. Everyone on our team is trying to win matches and there are a lot more variables at work within a team than just winning your match to get into the money at the end of the seaon.
First of all you have to have enough players to keep from a forfeit. If you tell all of the "true" low ranks that they have to pay but they won't get paid (at the end of the season) if they don't beat a much higher ranked player... you will likely have a problem getting them to show up and you're probably not going to keep too many of them past the first season once they watch the others collecting all of the money.

So this brings up another issue... you have built a team solely on money per wins and you end up with 4's - 8's playing on your team. In the UPA you can't total more than something like 24 speed points within the 5 matches in a tournament. It's going to be pretty hard to do that without some of the lower rankers (unless you have sandbagging on your team).
Now this brings up another issue. We have one player on our team who in his first season at playing league went undefeated in match play. Started as a 4 (and don't ask me why) the UPA dropped him down to a 3 after the first week or so... even though he should actually be ranked about a 6 (even if you only look at his stats and not his wins). Now if I, or our team captain (who is an 8) step up to the table we are already down by one or two games before the first rack is broken. So during the season he and I are likely to loose some matches... but it's not because we weren't trying to win. I don't think there is a player on our team that wouldn't like to have that (false) ranking of 1/2 their actual speed and be up 1 or 2 games before the match begins. I'm not ranked as high as I probably should be... but If you cut me down to a 3... I guarantee that I'm probably undefeated all season because all of my losses went hill-hill down to the last ball. But I had to win more games than (most of my opponents) and my team mate did and we're both pretty much evenly matched on the table. BTW... I'm not complaining (or whining) because it helped all of us get into the money... but everyone on the team (including this player) knows that we (and he) got a break because the UPA messed up on his numbers.

So now I can call up even another issue. I have a very serious respiratory problem that I told our captain about before I even joined the team. It has effected my play at times and there were at least 3 times this season that I should not have even been there... HOWEVER... I did show up and I did play because if I had not... the team would have lost points because of forfeits from not having enough players on those nights. So I am still there for the team on bad nights... even though my doctor would kick my a$$ if he knew it... so take away those points (due to forfeiture) for me just showing up and our team doesn't even place in the money at all. I'm not saying that I saved the team (or anything like that). Actually I'm pretty upset with myself over my play from this past season and it will likely help me to play much stronger in the upcoming season (should I return). Our captain knows that I have kicked myself hard for every loss that I have had... just as he does to himself. He also knows that I am evaluating why I am coming up short in some matches and working hard on fixing it. But it's not for the money... if it were about the money I wouldn't be playing league. I'd just play someone at $10+ sets when I knew my game was on.
But everyone contributes as a team. And a good team captain will not put players at the table who are not shooting for the team or " just showing up to kill time on a week night". I have a very nice GC-IV in my home so I'm not there just to shoot some with the guys to kill time. I can do that anytime that I want without having to pay league fees.

I could go on and on about the different variables that play into placing in the money beyond just winning your matches. And I'm not opposed to (proven) winners getting a recognition bonus for stepping it up all season long. But if a team doesn't play (and pay) as a team... then (in my opinion) they aren't just competing against the other teams anymore... they are also competing against themselves and so ends the definition of "team".
Just my take on the subject.

DAVE_M · Jul 17, 2014

You don't exactly see it the way that I do and that's fine.

There are plenty of players ranked as 3's that can play their speed efficiently and when matched up with other 3's, and sometimes a 4 on a bad night, can win their matches at their own pace.

If I'm ranked a 5 and I match up against 5's and go undefeated all session, I should forfeit my money, because the 3's and 4's on my team don't care to play their best?

lorider · Jul 17, 2014

now that most people have given their opinions on pay outs for money leagues lets get back to our regular scheduled programming .

went to my last light of the regular session napa league.

we only needed to win 1 match to lock up 1st place. luckily one of our team mates won his match...every one else lost...including me.

it was a 4-3 race in 8 ball.... i lost 3-0.

i ended up with a 15-3 record for the session and ended up in 1st place.

play offs are next week for the rest of the teams ... i am gonna be at high pockets watching the pros. hope fully i learn a few things watching them that will help me when i play in the open 9 ball there this weekend. limited to amatuers but there will be quite a few a and above players in it.

i have been hitting about 20 - 30 racks at the house every day and the only thing i have accomplished is realizing i suck .:embarrassed2:

Cory in DC · Jul 17, 2014

Well, since you asked: I'm playing my first season of APA 9-ball. I won my most recent match 55-3 in 6 racks, with three break and runs. Definitely above average for me, and pretty fun.

Cory

justadub · Jul 17, 2014

Diogenes said:
Here's my take about this form of payout. Everyone on our team is trying to win matches and there are a lot more variables at work within a team than just winning your match to get into the money at the end of the seaon.
First of all you have to have enough players to keep from a forfeit. If you tell all of the "true" low ranks that they have to pay but they won't get paid (at the end of the season) if they don't beat a much higher ranked player... you will likely have a problem getting them to show up and you're probably not going to keep too many of them past the first season once they watch the others collecting all of the money.

So this brings up another issue... you have built a team solely on money per wins and you end up with 4's - 8's playing on your team. In the UPA you can't total more than something like 24 speed points within the 5 matches in a tournament. It's going to be pretty hard to do that without some of the lower rankers (unless you have sandbagging on your team).
Now this brings up another issue. We have one player on our team who in his first season at playing league went undefeated in match play. Started as a 4 (and don't ask me why) the UPA dropped him down to a 3 after the first week or so... even though he should actually be ranked about a 6 (even if you only look at his stats and not his wins). Now if I, or our team captain (who is an 8) step up to the table we are already down by one or two games before the first rack is broken. So during the season he and I are likely to loose some matches... but it's not because we weren't trying to win. I don't think there is a player on our team that wouldn't like to have that (false) ranking of 1/2 their actual speed and be up 1 or 2 games before the match begins. I'm not ranked as high as I probably should be... but If you cut me down to a 3... I guarantee that I'm probably undefeated all season because all of my losses went hill-hill down to the last ball. But I had to win more games than (most of my opponents) and my team mate did and we're both pretty much evenly matched on the table. BTW... I'm not complaining (or whining) because it helped all of us get into the money... but everyone on the team (including this player) knows that we (and he) got a break because the UPA messed up on his numbers.

So now I can call up even another issue. I have a very serious respiratory problem that I told our captain about before I even joined the team. It has effected my play at times and there were at least 3 times this season that I should not have even been there... HOWEVER... I did show up and I did play because if I had not... the team would have lost points because of forfeits from not having enough players on those nights. So I am still there for the team on bad nights... even though my doctor would kick my a$$ if he knew it... so take away those points (due to forfeiture) for me just showing up and our team doesn't even place in the money at all. I'm not saying that I saved the team (or anything like that). Actually I'm pretty upset with myself over my play from this past season and it will likely help me to play much stronger in the upcoming season (should I return). Our captain knows that I have kicked myself hard for every loss that I have had... just as he does to himself. He also knows that I am evaluating why I am coming up short in some matches and working hard on fixing it. But it's not for the money... if it were about the money I wouldn't be playing league. I'd just play someone at $10+ sets when I knew my game was on.
But everyone contributes as a team. And a good team captain will not put players at the table who are not shooting for the team or " just showing up to kill time on a week night". I have a very nice GC-IV in my home so I'm not there just to shoot some with the guys to kill time. I can do that anytime that I want without having to pay league fees.

I could go on and on about the different variables that play into placing in the money beyond just winning your matches. And I'm not opposed to (proven) winners getting a recognition bonus for stepping it up all season long. But if a team doesn't play (and pay) as a team... then (in my opinion) they aren't just competing against the other teams anymore... they are also competing against themselves and so ends the definition of "team".
Just my take on the subject.

Well put. You just summarized it perfectly.

how are ya'll doing in league ?

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