Where ya looking....

duckie

GregH
Silver Member
In the main forum is a thread about eye movement. The are a lot a statements like.....”look at the CB then look at the OB.”

Is this really true? Cause if it is, your looking at the wrong place.

Just freeze two balls together such that one OB is dead on into a pocket. Place the CB somewhere on the table as for a cut shot. Get in your shooting position such as if to send the CB to hit the ball frozen to the OB that is going into the pocket.

If you look at the OB that is being sent to the pocket, you are not looking where the CB is going. The CB is going to the ball that’s frozen to the OB, not the OB going in the pocket.

Doing this results in the CB path that is not on your line of sight to the OB that is going in the pocket. Your looking at the OB, but the CB is going to the frozen ball.

So this makes me wonder how you can be looking at a OB but still send the CB to a spot you are not looking at?

Or they really aren’t looking at the OB, but just think there are, and really looking where the CB needs to be?
 

bbb

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
if i put part of a coin sticking out over the rubber nose of the rail so that it is sticking out over the playing surface and ask you to hit the part of the coin sticking out with the cue ball from any angle but directly across from the coin
where ya looking?
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
If you look at the OB that is being sent to the pocket, you are not looking where the CB is going.
So the only correct place to look is where the center of the CB is going - the ghost ball center? Nonsense.

"Looking at the OB" doesn't only mean looking at its center - it can mean looking at the OB contact point, or visualizing the CB in its ghost ball position against the OB, etc. It merely means "look at the part of the OB that best suits your aiming method".

Are you this literal about everything? Do you believe there's no such thing as a jump shot because CBs don't have legs? Or that the player jumps, not the CB?

I think you're trolling yourself. And you're not helping anybody's learning.

pj
chgo
 

Ralph Kramden

BOOM!.. ZOOM!.. MOON!
Silver Member
.
I hope this thread isn't going to end up as another "just run center CB over the point of the Babe Cranfield Arrow".

.
 

BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
Gold Member
Silver Member
In the main forum is a thread about eye movement. The are a lot a statements like.....”look at the CB then look at the OB.”

Is this really true? Cause if it is, your looking at the wrong place.

Just freeze two balls together such that one OB is dead on into a pocket. Place the CB somewhere on the table as for a cut shot. Get in your shooting position such as if to send the CB to hit the ball frozen to the OB that is going into the pocket.

If you look at the OB that is being sent to the pocket, you are not looking where the CB is going. The CB is going to the ball that’s frozen to the OB, not the OB going in the pocket.

Doing this results in the CB path that is not on your line of sight to the OB that is going in the pocket. Your looking at the OB, but the CB is going to the frozen ball.

So this makes me wonder how you can be looking at a OB but still send the CB to a spot you are not looking at?

Or they really aren’t looking at the OB, but just think there are, and really looking where the CB needs to be?

Actually, using your scenario, but in a real situation where the ob doesn't have a ball frozen to it. You simply aim ccb to a spot on or near the ob that would allow the cb to be exactly where it needs to be when it reaches the ob.

If you could see through that ball that you froze to the ob, then you'd be looking through this imaginary ghostball center to a specific target beyond the ghostball. You'll be looking at the ob, either to a spot directly on the ball or just outside the outer surface of the ball, left or right, not between the cb and ob. The ob is real, objective, and can be used as a background reference for sending the cb along the correct path to get it where it needs to be to pocket the ball. This is fractional aiming.

It works because our eyes do not see in 3D. They capture 2D images and the brain calculates depth/distance based on these images. As far as your eyes are concerned, pool balls are circles, not spheres. That's why it's pretty easy to shoot by simply looking at the far circle (ob), then aiming the near circle (cb) so that it will produce a desired overlap. The fact that the backside of the cb, which can't be seen, actually contacts the ob is irrelevant when aiming one 2D circle into another 2D circle.
 

duckie

GregH
Silver Member
There is a difference in looking at the OB, versus looking toward the OB.

Looking at the OB means looking at the OB. If someone really means looking towards the OB, then state it as so.

I can only go by what’s stated, not what one attended to mean in a statement.

Geez, bunch of close minded people. Nothing’s changed. And if you can’t see the distinction between looking at something versus looking towards something, you are pretty useless in explaining the real details about shot making.
 

duckie

GregH
Silver Member
.
I hope this thread isn't going to end up as another "just run center CB over the point of the Babe Cranfield Arrow".

.

Actually, it roll the CB contact patch over the Arrow Point. Get it right.

Yeah why use a method by a person that, although unofficial, but not disputed, ran over 700 hundred balls on a 4 1/2 x 9 table.
 

duckie

GregH
Silver Member
So the only correct place to look is where the center of the CB is going - the ghost ball center? Nonsense.

"Looking at the OB" doesn't only mean looking at its center - it can mean looking at the OB contact point, or visualizing the CB in its ghost ball position against the OB, etc. It merely means "look at the part of the OB that best suits your aiming method".

Are you this literal about everything? Do you believe there's no such thing as a jump shot because CBs don't have legs? Or that the player jumps, not the CB?

I think you're trolling yourself. And you're not helping anybody's learning.

pj
chgo

Did I state looking at the OB center, nope, it was look at the OB. Now your adding words to what I stated.

Did I even mentioned Ghostball center, nope, once again adding words to what I stated.

If you are looking at the OB, any part of it, you are not looking at where the CB needs to go. It s that simple. If you can’t get this, you are really hard headed.
 

duckie

GregH
Silver Member
So the only correct place to look is where the center of the CB is going - the ghost ball center? Nonsense.

"Looking at the OB" doesn't only mean looking at its center - it can mean looking at the OB contact point, or visualizing the CB in its ghost ball position against the OB, etc. It merely means "look at the part of the OB that best suits your aiming method".

Are you this literal about everything? Do you believe there's no such thing as a jump shot because CBs don't have legs? Or that the player jumps, not the CB?

I think you're trolling yourself. And you're not helping anybody's learning.

pj
chgo

So, where ya looking when you do a kick shot? At the OB? I bet it’s where the CB needs to go to hit the rail in order to hit the OB being kicked.

Naw according to you this would be nonsense.

Plus I never used the word center.......just where the CB needs to be.
 

BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
Gold Member
Silver Member
.....
......

If you are looking at the OB, any part of it, you are not looking at where the CB needs to go. It s that simple.
.......

By aiming through ccb to send the cb toward a specific point on the ob, which means looking at this point on the ob, the cb goes where it needs to go.

It's much easier to look at a real object to determine the cb path, rather than just looking at some space in thin air that would have the center of the cb end up exactly 1.125" from the center of the ob, especially since the approximation of this invisible space varies with different shot angles. By actually looking beyond this space, however, you can the ob as an aiming reference in the background, which gives you something solid to aim the cb toward. That's pretty simple.

It's no different than when shooting a kick shot and aiming to send the cb toward a specific diamond on a rail. Obviously the cb doesn't go all the way to the diamond, but by aiming for the diamond the cb hits the cushion where it should. Every now and then we might aim a kick shot to a specific place in thin air just before the cushion, but usually we aim through the cushion to a more defined point of reference.
 
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Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
So, where ya looking when you do a kick shot? At the OB? I bet it’s where the CB needs to go to hit the rail in order to hit the OB being kicked.
So looking at the rail is OK, but looking at the OB isn't. Oooookay.

Have you ever made sense?

pj <- musta missed it
chgo
 

Imac007

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
More quiet eye insight

Looking at quiet eye from the standpoint of billiards, one research study was found, link posted here by Duckie. Having posted in another thread the findings of Vickers, that experts suppressed vision during execution, the authors tested and concluded it didn’t apply to billiards. I noted that experts will close their eyes or turn their head while shooting in exhibitions or while stunting after a game is won. The researchers universal conclusion flies in the face of research from a myriad of sports showing that a different quiet eye treatment is not needed when switching expert activities. While the two groups used in the study differed in skill level, another possibility exists; the expert group were not truly "expert". Their conclusion could be flawed.

During a session with the founder of our local billiard academy, he fell out of form, momentarily. To bring him back on track he was asked to align as normal and find his target. Once stopped, before his final stroke, he was to close his eyes, for the duration of the stroke. His shot now ran true. It intrigued him and he repeated it a few more times, each successfully. The point is that someone with an ingrained straight stroke, once aligned, no longer needs to look. There is likely some truth to their finding as they also found most participant’s final gaze was at the cue ball. Later though they fudged on the final gaze location, as being either ball. In some cases the type of action imparted to the cue ball causes players to watch its action for feedback.

One thing missing in their documented report are saccades. Saccades are the rapid movements of the eyes between fixation points. Vickers reports them in her book on quiet eye.
8FF85303-4C08-4969-A209-B0A39DF33C26.jpeg
Based on the premise that Vickers findings translate from golf to pool, I noted the difference in saccades between experts/non-expert participants. The tracking and fixation numbers were similar, except in duration and accuracy. The number of movement of the eyes back and forth between the fixation points were off the charts different. The expert putters had 46 saccades on average and the non-expert had only 4. Interestingly the number of fixations, for experts, were nearly exactly the same number as the saccade movements. Each jump had a purpose, a fixation.

In golf researchers noted the part of the ball fixated, in the billiard study, no location was noted as to gaze location on the cue ball or object ball for that matter. In fairness these researchers were more interested in close vs far targets. They found no real difference, however, even a snooker table length is near compared to lengthy putts or trapshooting targets. No measured clarification of the near/far dynamic was made.

Other research on the attention window and successful prediction, in light of the saccades data, makes sense. Experts are checking and rechecking the shot over and over until they are sure. They are only shooting when they are certain they are going to achieve their imagined outcome. The part of the brain associated with prediction lights up on successful outcomes.

While this might not solve the "which ball" question, I’m not sure it’s the right question.
 
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