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Seth C.
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08-11-2018, 09:45 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by sparkle84 View Post
In most cases, the CB, in the examples he gave, will not come off the end rail and back into the rack. That's not the purpose for applying right. It's most usual purpose would be to slow the CB down after coming off the rail. If the same shot is hit with the same speed but no english or left is used there's a good chance it will end up way uptable or even in a pocket. A couple of the main goals when shooting breakshots is to avoid scratching and to stay downtable. The technique he advocates is helpful in accomplishing those 2 things.
He doesn't give reasons for what he says to do but it's only about 5 min. of video.
To explain all the nuances could take more like 5 hrs. He does say that every situation is different and other scenarios may call for doing something differently.
Aspiring 14.1 players may want to take note about something. If you take a look at the table layouts in the 3 times he does the side of rack breakshots you'll see that the 1st 2 table layouts after the break are superior than the 3rd one. That should indicate to you that, with breaksots in general, more angle is better.
It's the one size fits all aspect of the advice that I question. Whether the CB is going to contact the top, middle or bottom of an object ball, and whether the object ball is near/at the corner of the stack or in the middle of the stack, all must be considered in deciding whether to apply English and what kind to apply. Maybe I'm in a minority, but I think trying to get the CB to the middle of the table, rather than down amongst the stack balls and clusters (where no shot might be available) seems like a good goal.
  
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08-12-2018, 12:26 PM

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Originally Posted by Seth C. View Post
It's the one size fits all aspect of the advice that I question. Whether the CB is going to contact the top, middle or bottom of an object ball, and whether the object ball is near/at the corner of the stack or in the middle of the stack, all must be considered in deciding whether to apply English and what kind to apply. Maybe I'm in a minority, but I think trying to get the CB to the middle of the table, rather than down amongst the stack balls and clusters (where no shot might be available) seems like a good goal.
You'll note that in the part of your post (#12) that I quoted, you questioned "why right english". I explained why right english is applicable in this situation (keep the CB downtable and avoid scratching). It will very seldom result in the CB getting caught up in back of or stuck in the rack.
I understand much of your problem is his lack of attention to detail but as I said it's only 5 min. long.
You're not in a minority when you say getting the CB to center table is a good thing. Many advocate that.
I myself, in most cases, don't really pay much attention to that. My main concerns center on opening the balls effectively, not being uptable and staying out of a pocket. The CB around center table (while nice) is secondary to those goals.
Pats video, while admittedly lacking detail, can definitely be helpful to someone in Peppersauces stage of developement.
More attention to detail can always come later.
That's coming from someone whose past posts in this forum have stated that while rules of thumb (in 14.1) are helpful, each breakshot should be evaluated individually.
As far as the BS in his video (CB and OB equidistant) is concerned, I'll offer a further explanation.
There are certain breakshots, that which ball in the rack is struck and/or where it is struck is somewhat irrelevant. This happens to be one of them, providing its contact is somewhere between the bottom of the top ball and the bottom of the 3rd ball down. Excellent results will occur almost always.
Outside those parameters may call for something different.
Something else that was in one of your posts should also be mentioned in relation to this. " He also doesn't discuss the importance, when the OB is far enough away from the stack to be able to influence the point of contact with the stack by applying high or low on the CB, of contacting the stack other than in its middle. That would be a good rule of thumb."
If you are going to use follow on a breakshot, it's usually a good idea to adjust your speed so as to make sure the CB strikes the rack before the follow takes effect and curves the CB's path. The further away the harder you need to hit it.
Why is this important? Because once the CB curves and then hits something it comes off what it hits (in this case a ball) and travels along the tangent line, which might lead into the corner pocket.
To avoid this, if hit hard enough, the curve occurs after contact with the rack and though it may be headed towards the pocket it will curve to the right and go into the bottom rail. At this point, the CB is most likely heading into the rail at a right to left angle and in that case the right english comes into play and helps slow the CB down so it doesn't end up near the top rail.
I type slower than everyone on earth so I'm done. As previously mentioned, I have a lot of 14.1 info in back posts (going into a lot of detail) which the OP and others might find helpful.
**Peppersauce.... You're asking for info on breakshots. It's something you need to know but a bigger issue is shot selection. If you improve in that area you're much more likely to get on more, better breakshots. I'd almost guarantee that during your practice sessions you run the rack but fail to get on a BS where you can effectively open the next rack and continue. Or run 11,12, or 13 balls and then have to try something crazy in order to ensure a BS and miss. This is very common and is pretty much due to poor shot selection. You have the shotmaking and position skills for running 40-70 balls consistently but your shot selection and decision making are prohibiting that.
  
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08-12-2018, 01:13 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by sparkle84 View Post
Why is this important? Because once the CB curves and then hits something it comes off what it hits (in this case a ball) and travels along the tangent line, which might lead into the corner pocket.
To avoid this, if hit hard enough, the curve occurs after contact with the rack and though it may be headed towards the pocket it will curve to the right and go into the bottom rail.
Interesting point. The curve after contact with the rail keeps the cb from scratching. I hadn't considered the consequences if that forward curve happens BEFORE contact with the pack. Thanks!

@ Seth: I was annoyed at the constant advice everybody always gave to put a little right english on the cue ball for a right hander's break shot. I looked and looked for the reason and I concluded that it was just what people say for a left cut. Many people put a little english on every cut shot, so I thought maybe that was the reason. In essence, no reason.

But I noticed myself that many shots without english leave the cue ball hitting the foot rail and then rolling all the way to the head rail, or a scratch. It seemed to me that the english would put the breaks on the cb and prevent that. Lo and behold I caught a quick mention of that in Mosconi's video, link below. First he only says that the high right causes the cb to drive through the pack. Of course that's the "high" part and not the "right" part. But on the video he then says almost as an afterthought, "you see it also kept my cue ball down in this position so I have another shot." As an aside, you'll note that Mosconi said, "That's better." Why would he say that? If you look carefully you'll see that the ball spread is different in the overhead view. He didn't like something after the break shot so he shot it over again! lol.

https://youtu.be/Yym21l9_Z3U?t=26m7s

Anyway, Willie and sparkle say the right english is to keep the cue ball down in the bottom area of the rack. Good enough for me!

Edit: I haven't watched this video in a long time. After he runs the first rack he says that he has to hit the next shot harder because of the angle and therefore will need to put more english on the ball to keep it at the foot of the table, "to hold the ball down here" as he puts it.

https://youtu.be/Yym21l9_Z3U?t=29m21s


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Seth C.
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08-12-2018, 03:44 PM

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Originally Posted by Dan White View Post
Interesting point. The curve after contact with the rail keeps the cb from scratching. I hadn't considered the consequences if that forward curve happens BEFORE contact with the pack. Thanks!

@ Seth: I was annoyed at the constant advice everybody always gave to put a little right english on the cue ball for a right hander's break shot. I looked and looked for the reason and I concluded that it was just what people say for a left cut. Many people put a little english on every cut shot, so I thought maybe that was the reason. In essence, no reason.

But I noticed myself that many shots without english leave the cue ball hitting the foot rail and then rolling all the way to the head rail, or a scratch. It seemed to me that the english would put the breaks on the cb and prevent that. Lo and behold I caught a quick mention of that in Mosconi's video, link below. First he only says that the high right causes the cb to drive through the pack. Of course that's the "high" part and not the "right" part. But on the video he then says almost as an afterthought, "you see it also kept my cue ball down in this position so I have another shot." As an aside, you'll note that Mosconi said, "That's better." Why would he say that? If you look carefully you'll see that the ball spread is different in the overhead view. He didn't like something after the break shot so he shot it over again! lol.

https://youtu.be/Yym21l9_Z3U?t=26m7s

Anyway, Willie and sparkle say the right english is to keep the cue ball down in the bottom area of the rack. Good enough for me!

Edit: I haven't watched this video in a long time. After he runs the first rack he says that he has to hit the next shot harder because of the angle and therefore will need to put more english on the ball to keep it at the foot of the table, "to hold the ball down here" as he puts it.

https://youtu.be/Yym21l9_Z3U?t=29m21s
I appreciate the posts from you guys, especially given the hassle of typing.

You are giving me things to think about and helping me learn, so thanks. I'm going to use right with some regularity and see what happens.
  
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Seth C.
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09-03-2018, 04:14 AM

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Originally Posted by DynoDan View Post
I can see how english is important when breaking from behind the rack (you canít get uptable without it), but it can certainly complicate shotmaking. Itís bad enough that you must take into consideration the condition of the balls & speed of hit (loft/throw) when making any cut shot, but when you add english to the mix (squirt deflection & spin throw), pocketing the break shot in a pressure situation can often get dicey. After all, if you miss and your opponent is any good, you are usually SOL!
So, I was watching the video of a straight pool seminar that Ray Martin gave many years ago (https://youtu.be/apf-EZf2LGI). At one point (1:03:40) he is asked about whether to use English on a standard break shot. His answer was:

"You don't need any. English doesn't do a damn thing to the rack. Zero. You can use English, if it helps you make the shot -- if it helps you in your mind. Nothing wrong with that. The important thing here is to pocket the ball."

On a related note, during the same discussion, he talked about speed of the break shot as it relates to resultant CB position, rather than as it relates to dispersion of the balls (which is what most people talk about).
  
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09-03-2018, 05:50 AM

Play Your Best Straight Pool by Phil Capelle has a chapter on break shots that covers this pretty well. Also, Break Shot Patterns book/DVD combination is great showing examples in tournament play about how the last five balls were picked. You can use the book, with diagrams, and follow the DVD and actually see the ideas in practice. Both of these are invaluable, in my opinion.


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09-03-2018, 06:37 AM

This video is one of the best ever made on the subject.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QI9BJqyUhrI
  
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Thanks! - 09-04-2018, 08:07 AM

Hey folks! This is the first time I’ve been on AZ since I started this thread about a month ago. I haven’t really played since then for several reasons. I reinjured my lower back (old injury coming back to haunt me) and have also had a lot of personal things going on that require my attention.

But enough about all that! I’ve read through all the replies and wanted to say thanks for all the great suggestions and advice.

I’ve rehabilitated my back enough to get on the table a little and play some lately...still nothing but 14.1 until I break 50. I haven’t been trying that though. I agree with those of you who said my patterns, especially end game, are my weakest point so I’m just doing drills to work on that.

I came across a drill that David Sapolis recommends where you basically play 5.1 instead of 14.1 and I’m struggling with it pretty bad, lol. I think it’s helpful because it’s forcing me to pick a break ball right after the break and pick a solid pattern that gets me there safely. A lot of times I feel like I get away with some stuff using a full rack because I have so many options. Some racks I make multiple mistakes and still manage to recover by leaving a few hangers around the table. This drill takes that option away and I kind of like it.

Not only that, it’s also forcing me to see other break ball options because I just don’t have enough balls on the table after the break to try and develop something...and the 5 balls present a smaller target, forcing me to be more accurate with my CB and go for break balls that are a little closer to the rack.

I’ve also been scattering all 15 balls in the lower half of the table and just trying to work my way through traffic and into a good break ball, as recommended in another thread aimed at lower ball runners like myself.

I’ve watched the videos you guys recommended and I have one or two of the books mentioned already, but I definitely will get Capelle’s 14.1 book. I have a couple of his books on other subjects and they seem top notch to me.

Anyway, I just wanted to stop in and let you all know I appreciate the help and advice.

Last edited by peppersauce; 09-04-2018 at 08:20 AM.
  
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09-04-2018, 11:03 AM

As I said above, Break Shot Patterns are all about the last 5 balls and seeing some of the top players shooting them is a HUGE help, in my opinion. Dave's stuff is great too!


I had a stroke. I had it when I came in, I KNOW I did

"Nothing beats playing pool in your underwear at 2 o'clock in the morning." George Fels 1938-2013

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09-04-2018, 10:32 PM

@peppersauce

some recommendations are shown up already.

what in my opinion is a great help- for your Overall game, and a better understanding ist George Fels "Mastering Pool".
In my opinion still one of the best books ever written- a Little forgotten nowadays. But as i said: in my opinion Kind of a bible if it s about straight pool.

watching strong Players is also a necessary thing- Play STRONG Players- and ask! try it out on your own. Make it to the table.

But you will always learn from really better Players- and never hesitate to ask them peppersauce! knowledge is real power- especially in straight pool.

George Fels: Mastering Pool
Phil capelle: Play your best straight pool

work through them- and you will have 100% a better understanding :-)

have a smooth stroke.


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09-27-2018, 07:40 AM

Little vent, if you donít mind.

Iím back to playing like normal again since I hurt my back and Iíve been working on my patterns, break balls, end patterns, etc. I feel like Iím improving but my runs arenít showing it. On a positive note, my pace is picking up a little and Iím not so confused about what to do after I break the balls anymore. Now I have another problem.

Iíll break the balls and find my problem areas and a secondary break ball or two, if needed. Then I begin working my way through things. Usually about halfway through the rack everything is open and Iíve decided on a break ball and key ball. Then I miss an easy shot and end my run! This has been happening over and over again. Frustrated is a euphemism for how I feel.

I have no idea why Iím doing this. Itís not like Iíve been playing bad. Iím playing pretty well, and Iíll routinely make tough shots and play good position, make good breakouts, etc., just to chop a ball into the rail from a couple of feet away from the hole.

I have a lot of work to do still with improving my patterns and not relying so much on shotmaking, but none of that matters if I keep missing the easy ones. Part of it is my table Iím sure. Itís tough, but I have a bunch of runs in the 40ís on it. Iím just having a hell of a hard time reaching my goal of 50.
  
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Seth C.
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09-27-2018, 02:07 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by peppersauce View Post
Little vent, if you donít mind.

Iím back to playing like normal again since I hurt my back and Iíve been working on my patterns, break balls, end patterns, etc. I feel like Iím improving but my runs arenít showing it. On a positive note, my pace is picking up a little and Iím not so confused about what to do after I break the balls anymore. Now I have another problem.

Iíll break the balls and find my problem areas and a secondary break ball or two, if needed. Then I begin working my way through things. Usually about halfway through the rack everything is open and Iíve decided on a break ball and key ball. Then I miss an easy shot and end my run! This has been happening over and over again. Frustrated is a euphemism for how I feel.

I have no idea why Iím doing this. Itís not like Iíve been playing bad. Iím playing pretty well, and Iíll routinely make tough shots and play good position, make good breakouts, etc., just to chop a ball into the rail from a couple of feet away from the hole.

I have a lot of work to do still with improving my patterns and not relying so much on shotmaking, but none of that matters if I keep missing the easy ones. Part of it is my table Iím sure. Itís tough, but I have a bunch of runs in the 40ís on it. Iím just having a hell of a hard time reaching my goal of 50.
Peppersauce -- This is my problem, too -- ARRGGH -- although it is mixed in with some failure to be as careful or precise with CB position as one needs to be, which results in what could be a comfortable next shot turning into a very hard (or worse) next shot. A couple of the reasons for this less than exact cue ball positioning are (a) too much focus on aiming/pocketing, when the shot I'm playing is one that regularly makes me uncomfortable, (b) lack of ability to fully control the CB (more with long shots and draw shots than anything else), and (c) less than full understanding of how hard to hit the shot in order to get the CB to land where I'm intending (example, I often send the CB too far after pocketing an OB that is close to a corner pocket).

That thoughtful Dan White will tell you that the first thing you (and I, and anyone else) should do, if we don't make all the makable shots, is to stop working on anything/everything else and perfect the stroke -- however long that may take -- and then and only then work forward with aiming, ball selection, etc. And, he will tell you to develop a "no elbow drop" stroke as part of that process of perfecting the stroke. Can't and don't disagree with him, but . . . when my stroke is good enough to make many difficult shots, and to do so with English, it is really frustrating to miss easier shots and end runs.

Seth
  
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09-27-2018, 04:33 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by peppersauce View Post
Little vent, if you don’t mind.

I’m back to playing like normal again since I hurt my back and I’ve been working on my patterns, break balls, end patterns, etc. I feel like I’m improving but my runs aren’t showing it. On a positive note, my pace is picking up a little and I’m not so confused about what to do after I break the balls anymore. Now I have another problem.

I’ll break the balls and find my problem areas and a secondary break ball or two, if needed. Then I begin working my way through things. Usually about halfway through the rack everything is open and I’ve decided on a break ball and key ball. Then I miss an easy shot and end my run! This has been happening over and over again. Frustrated is a euphemism for how I feel.

I have no idea why I’m doing this. It’s not like I’ve been playing bad. I’m playing pretty well, and I’ll routinely make tough shots and play good position, make good breakouts, etc., just to chop a ball into the rail from a couple of feet away from the hole.

I have a lot of work to do still with improving my patterns and not relying so much on shotmaking, but none of that matters if I keep missing the easy ones. Part of it is my table I’m sure. It’s tough, but I have a bunch of runs in the 40’s on it. I’m just having a hell of a hard time reaching my goal of 50.
I call this upshifting. It's like driving up a long hill with your car, and once you're on the top, you prematurely shift to a higher gear and stall your engine. Your brain is telling you that all the hard work is done now, so you can relax and don't need to look at the shots. It's shifting gears from a low gear to where it takes it slow and pays close attention, to a high gear where it only considers the bigger picture. On a tight table, you cannot afford that luxury. I don't know if I read that somewhere or came up with it myself, but that is at least what I think about this kind of problem.

The key is to develop a pre-shot routine, where you take the same exact amount of time on every shot (after the thinking has been done). Same amount of strokes, chalking all that stuff. That internal self talk about the work being done is garbage that sabotages your progress. Don't think negativeley either. Just treat every shot the same. Really focus on every step of your psr, to drown out the garbage your conscious mind is throwing out. Personally I use chalking for that purpose. I really concentrate and look at my tip, trying to coat it perfectly on every shot. It's a reset button for my brain.

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09-27-2018, 08:15 PM

Here's one by Ralf Eckert. Unfortunately it's in German. But if you watch closely you can follow a lot of what he's saying. Ratta posted on this thread.....he's German, perhaps he can translate?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJfD0sRBIbk
  
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peppersauce
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09-27-2018, 08:19 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seth C. View Post
Peppersauce -- This is my problem, too -- ARRGGH -- although it is mixed in with some failure to be as careful or precise with CB position as one needs to be, which results in what could be a comfortable next shot turning into a very hard (or worse) next shot. A couple of the reasons for this less than exact cue ball positioning are (a) too much focus on aiming/pocketing, when the shot I'm playing is one that regularly makes me uncomfortable, (b) lack of ability to fully control the CB (more with long shots and draw shots than anything else), and (c) less than full understanding of how hard to hit the shot in order to get the CB to land where I'm intending (example, I often send the CB too far after pocketing an OB that is close to a corner pocket).

That thoughtful Dan White will tell you that the first thing you (and I, and anyone else) should do, if we don't make all the makable shots, is to stop working on anything/everything else and perfect the stroke -- however long that may take -- and then and only then work forward with aiming, ball selection, etc. And, he will tell you to develop a "no elbow drop" stroke as part of that process of perfecting the stroke. Can't and don't disagree with him, but . . . when my stroke is good enough to make many difficult shots, and to do so with English, it is really frustrating to miss easier shots and end runs.

Seth
I’m not saying Dan is wrong about the pendulum stroke—he may very well be right! I brought this up in another thread a while back. I never had anyone to teach me fundamentals when I started playing. My stroke, currently, is the product of years and years of trial and error to find what works for me. I don’t have a pendulum stroke or a piston stroke. My stroke is just weird...straight if you were to view it from above, but wavy from the side. My hand kind of moves in an ellipse during my warm up strokes. I cue lower than I’m actually going to hit the ball most of the time and drop my elbow on my final stroke before delivery. I don’t do it on purpose, it’s just what I do. At this point I’m not sure if overhauling my entire stroke would even be worth it. There’s always room for improvement though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Straightpool_99 View Post
I call this upshifting. It's like driving up a long hill with your car, and once you're on the top, you prematurely shift to a higher gear and stall your engine. Your brain is telling you that all the hard work is done now, so you can relax and don't need to look at the shots. It's shifting gears from a low gear to where it takes it slow and pays close attention, to a high gear where it only considers the bigger picture. On a tight table, you cannot afford that luxury. I don't know if I read that somewhere or came up with it myself, but that is at least what I think about this kind of problem.

The key is to develop a pre-shot routine, where you take the same exact amount of time on every shot (after the thinking has been done). Same amount of strokes, chalking all that stuff. That internal self talk about the work being done is garbage that sabotages your progress. Don't think negativeley either. Just treat every shot the same. Really focus on every step of your psr, to drown out the garbage your conscious mind is throwing out. Personally I use chalking for that purpose. I really concentrate and look at my tip, trying to coat it perfectly on every shot. It's a reset button for my brain.
I’m going to give that a shot. Thinking about it, I may just be rushing to get to the break ball.

It’s like I feel so relieved after all the hard work is done I just want to get into the next rack. I’ll try adding a little pause with the chalking to gather myself after the table is opened up and see if it helps.

Thanks for the input, fellas!

Last edited by peppersauce; 09-27-2018 at 08:27 PM.
  
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