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14.1 Rule Question - Ball-in-Hand on a Double Hit?
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ChrisinNC
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14.1 Rule Question - Ball-in-Hand on a Double Hit? - 08-18-2018, 06:20 PM

I've played this game for nearly 50 years, but I'm just having a hard time recalling a certain ruling that happened last night while playing. Surely at one time I did know the correct ruling for this occurence, but my 61 plus years is not allowing me to.

On a breakout shot with the cue ball fairly close to the object ball, and playing a exaggerated follow through in to the pack to try to spread the pack and not bury the cue ball in it, I accidentally double hit the cue ball.

I know obviously it is a foul which I called on myself, but I just can't remember if this is ball-in-hand behind the headstring for the incoming player, or does the player just play the cue ball from where it lies?

I can see instances where you might be penalizing the incoming player if either one of those two is indeed the correct rule. Seems like it would make more sense for the incoming player to have their choice between those two options? Thanks
  
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08-18-2018, 06:50 PM

You just play the ball where is lays.
  
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ChrisinNC
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08-18-2018, 07:20 PM

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Originally Posted by zencues.com View Post
You just play the ball where is lays.
Thanks. That's kind of what I thought and what we did, but it seems like in the case where you get lucky and leave your opponent nothing, it could be a tough break for the incoming player. However, if I had fouled first, if they don't like the shot, they can always then take the intentional foul and pass it back to me, so I guess it does make sense.
  
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john coloccia
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08-19-2018, 03:59 PM

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Originally Posted by ChrisinNC View Post
Thanks. That's kind of what I thought and what we did, but it seems like in the case where you get lucky and leave your opponent nothing, it could be a tough break for the incoming player. However, if I had fouled first, if they don't like the shot, they can always then take the intentional foul and pass it back to me, so I guess it does make sense.
If it's intentional, it can be considered unsportsmanlike conduct, and the ref has broad discretion how to handle it. Assuming you have a ref, of course, which is hardly ever the case even at championship levels.

But most of the time, if you have the table in 14.1, you're at the advantage so it's usually not an issue. It's very, very, very rare that I'm glad I'm sitting in my seat!

I can't imagine a situation where shooting from behind the head string would be an appropriate response. A slightly more appropriate penalty for an intentional double hit would be 15 + 1 points, re-rack and re-break, or take it as it lies, option of the incoming player. Honestly, I can't remember ever seeing a case where it wasn't just played where it lies, with a simple -1 for the foul.

Last edited by john coloccia; 08-19-2018 at 04:05 PM.
  
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08-19-2018, 04:02 PM

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Originally Posted by john coloccia View Post
If it's intentional, it can be considered unsportsmanlike conduct, and the ref has broad discretion how to handle it. Assuming you have a ref, of course, which is hardly ever the case even at championship levels.

But most of the time, if you have the table in 14.1, you're at the advantage so it's usually not an issue. It's very, very, very rare that I'm glad I'm sitting in my seat!
I assume what you meant to say is, if you have the table in 14.1 and your opponent is on 1 foul and you're not, then you always have the advantage. I can think of many instances where you are at the table and you are far from being at an advantage.
  
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09-26-2018, 08:58 AM

Ok, I am confused. Why would an intentional double hit of the cue ball be considered an unsportsmanlike conduct and any other intentional foul not be so? What will follow is the same. The person who commits the intentional (double hit or otherwise) is on first foul and if I don't like what is left on the table, I give him back the table with my own intentional foul.
  
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09-26-2018, 10:06 AM

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Originally Posted by robertod View Post
Ok, I am confused. Why would an intentional double hit of the cue ball be considered an unsportsmanlike conduct and any other intentional foul not be so? What will follow is the same. The person who commits the intentional (double hit or otherwise) is on first foul and if I don't like what is left on the table, I give him back the table with my own intentional foul.
An intentional double hit is rarely useful at 14.1.

An example of when you would want to use an intentional double hit is in 9 ball when you are almost frozen to the 8 with all the balls still on the table and no path to the 1 ball. The 1-9 combo is easy since the 9 is almost sitting in the pocket. To solve the problem you shoot almost straight through the 8 ball such that the double hit gets the cue ball to knock the 9 away from the pocket.

Situations that could use double hits at one pocket are more common.

The fundamental idea is that the game is played by setting the cue ball in motion with a single, quick, forward contact with the cue tip, and intentionally moving the cue ball in any other way is not part of the game.

You can't take a foul with your ferrule. You can't intentionally miscue. You can't do the "brush with a cue lift" soft hit. You can't shoot with the bumper of your cue when a bridge is not available. You may not intentionally cue object balls. None of those is part of the game.


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09-26-2018, 01:58 PM

This is do weird to me. Regardless of the double hit. If you are playing ball in hand rules then any foul is ball in hand. Are we dating there is a mixed set of foul rules? Boy is that confusing.


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09-26-2018, 02:06 PM

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Originally Posted by DrawBack74 View Post
This is do weird to me. Regardless of the double hit. If you are playing ball in hand rules then any foul is ball in hand. Are we dating there is a mixed set of foul rules? Boy is that confusing.

...
Of course ball in hand rules do not apply to 14.1 except when the cue ball is pocketed or sent off the table or in certain end-of-rack situations and even then the cue ball must go either in the kitchen or on a designated spot (for rare situations).

Here are the World Standardized Rules. See the unsportsmanlike conduct section under fouls:

https://wpapool.com/rules-of-play/

You should also look over the Regulations:

https://wpapool.com/rule-regulations/


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09-29-2018, 12:20 PM

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Originally Posted by DrawBack74 View Post
This is do weird to me. Regardless of the double hit. If you are playing ball in hand rules then any foul is ball in hand. Are we dating there is a mixed set of foul rules? Boy is that confusing.


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Unlike rules of most other pool games have changed / evolved, 14.1 rules have not changed at all in forever, at least that I can think of.
  
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09-30-2018, 10:58 AM

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Originally Posted by ChrisinNC View Post
Unlike rules of most other pool games have changed / evolved, 14.1 rules have not changed at all in forever, at least that I can think of.
For a while various rules surrounding 15-point foul situations were in flux.

The BCAPL/CSI rules differ from the World Standardized Rules in several minor ways.


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