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08-22-2018, 08:35 PM

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Originally Posted by AtLarge View Post
Hohmann's record in the World 14.1:

1st -- 5 times
2nd -- once
other top 8 -- 6 times
out of the top 8 -- once
LOL if you're trying to compare these events to those that had Steve Mizerak, Mike Sigel, Nick Varner, Jim Rempe, Irving Crane, Joe Balsis, Dallas West, Ray Martin, Allen Hopkins, Dan DiLiberto, Jimmy Fusco, Jack Colavita, Larry Lisciotti and Pete Margo. Even Luther Lassiter and Jimmy Caras, though past their primes, were still in the mix in some of these years. All of them were focusing on straight pool back then, and every single one of them was a contender for the title of world champion.

As we've noted regularly on this forum, these Dragon events have not been world championship events for close to ten years now and, to be fair, the European Championships most definitely offer the strongest 14.1 field of the calendar year.

I wonder whether Hohmann could have topped the fields of yesteryear, given how many stone cold champions you had to beat to take down the title. He'd have been hard pressed to win even once against the toughest fields, though I feel he'd have found a way. For my money, though, he'd have always been a clear underdog against both Mizerak and Sigel.

I attended about nine world championships from the mid 1970's to the mid-1980's and I've probably attended nine of the Dragon 14.1 events. Comparing the two is comical.

Last edited by sjm; 08-22-2018 at 09:26 PM.
  
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08-22-2018, 08:38 PM

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Originally Posted by arcstats View Post
It's not that Peter Burrows decided to move the tournament, rather the owners of Diamond Billiards in Midlothian VA made a business decision to no longer host the tournament.
Got it, thanks. Stupid assumption on my part. My bad.
  
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08-22-2018, 08:41 PM

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Originally Posted by Dan White View Post
Yup, that's Seth. Causing trouble wherever he goes!
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08-22-2018, 09:51 PM

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Originally Posted by sjm View Post
LOL if you're trying to compare these events ... Comparing the two is comical.
Just providing information that might be interesting or stimulate discussion.

Last edited by AtLarge; 08-22-2018 at 10:25 PM.
  
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Hopkins/Hohmann
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Hopkins/Hohmann - 08-23-2018, 03:32 AM

As in most discussions era to era comparisons are fun but not really applicable for all sorts of factors, including the opportunities for competition and the strength of opponents.
That being said, Thorsten won the World 14, 1 in 2006, 2011, 2013, 2015, and 2018. He finished 2nd in 2017, 3-4 in 2010, and 5-8 in 2012 and 2016. He won the American championship in 2013, and finished second in 2012, 2015, and 2016. (I do not have records for the U.S. event held in 2016 ad 2017.)
Below is Allen Hopkins record, thanks to Charles Ursitti. (It does not include the 1990s, in which there were few straight pool events.)
August 25 - 29, 1970

5th Annual BCA U. S. Open
Grand Ballroom – Sheraton-Chicago Hotel - Chicago, IL
5th High Run 74
August 16 – 21, 1971

6th Annual BCA U. S. Open Sheraton-Chicago Hotel - Chicago, IL
25th
August 15 – 19, 1972

7th Annual BCA U. S. Open
Grand Ballroom – Sheraton-Chicago Hotel - Chicago, IL
9th High Run 141
January 26 – February 17, 1973

5th Annual Los Angeles World Pocket Billiard Championship Tournament American Legion Post 43 – 2035 North Highland Ave – Hollywood, CA

10th
August 7 - 11, 1973

8th BCA Annual U. S. Open
Grand Ballroom - Sheraton-Chicago Hotel - Chicago, IL
15th

February 1 - 23, 1974

6th Annual World’s Pocket Billiard Championship
American Legion Post #3 - 2035 North Highland Ave - Hollywood, CA
2nd High Run 150
August 5 - 10, 1974

9th Annual U. S. Open
Grand Ballroom – Sheraton-Chicago Hotel – Chicago
9th
August 16 – 25, 1975

10th Annual BCA U. S. Open
Grand Ballroom – Sheraton-Chicago Hotel – Chicago
5th

August 9 – 15, 1976

1st Annual PPPA World Open Asbury Park, NJ
11th
August 8 - 14, 1977

2nd Annual PPPA World Open Convention Center - Asbury Park, NJ
1st
August 12 – 19, 1978
3rd Annual PPPA World Open
Grand Ballroom - Biltmore Hotel – New York City, NY
2nd
August 12 – 18, 1979

4th Annual PPPA World Open
Holiday Inn Coliseum – 57th Street – New York City, NY
12th
August 16 – 25, 1980

5th Annual PPPA World Open 14.1 Tournament Roosevelt Hotel – 45th Street – New York City, NY
46th
August 16 – 25, 1981

6th Annual PPPA World Open 14.1 Tournament
Grand Ballroom - Roosevelt Hotel – 45th Street – New York, NY
15th
August 14 – 21, 1982

7th Annual PPPA World Open Pocket Billiard Championship
Grand Ballroom – Roosevelt Hotel – 45th Street & Madison Ave – New York City, NY
8th

August 13 - 20, 1983

8th Annual PPPA World Open 14.1 Tournament
Grand Ballroom – Roosevelt Hotel 45th Street & Madison Ave – New York City, NY
7-8th
November 18 – 23, 1985
World 14.1 Championship
International Convention Center - Niagara Falls, NY
5-6th
August 9 – 16, 1986

9th Annual PPPA World Open 14.1 Championship Philadelphia Center Hotel – Philadelphia, PA
2nd
November 28 – December 1, 1989
14th BCA U.S. Open 14.1 Championship
Congress Hotel – 520 S. Michigan Ave – Chicago, IL
7-8


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08-23-2018, 03:46 AM

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Originally Posted by Seth C. View Post
What in the world did the promoter of a billiard tournament do to get itself banned from a billiards forum?
There is someone else(from Charlie΄s staff) posting always as Korean Dragon and those posts are spam/Ads. Personally, I was thinking already years ago that should be stopped because it is annoying and violates against forum rules..


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08-28-2018, 12:55 AM

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Lee -- I didn't intend to demean your work, and thanks for all the effort that you put in on behalf of the game and its followers!
Oh, I didn't mean that! I realise the coverage is bad; I was simply fishing for sources :P.
  
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08-30-2018, 10:20 AM

The field of competitors in those 70s and 80s straight pool tournaments were so much better than the fields the TH competes in today and for at least the past 10 years - I have seen most of the competitors from the 70s to now playing 14.1 live and TH would really struggle to come in the top 5 of anything from the 70s and 80s, much less against Mosconi, Crane, Caras, Greenleaf, Ponzi, etc. in their prime, I really do not rank TH in the top 12 of 14.1 all time- at a minimum.
  
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08-30-2018, 07:04 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikemosconi View Post
The field of competitors in those 70s and 80s straight pool tournaments were so much better than the fields the TH competes in today and for at least the past 10 years - I have seen most of the competitors from the 70s to now playing 14.1 live and TH would really struggle to come in the top 5 of anything from the 70s and 80s, much less against Mosconi, Crane, Caras, Greenleaf, Ponzi, etc. in their prime, I really do not rank TH in the top 12 of 14.1 all time- at a minimum.
Opinions can certainly differ from knowledgeable person to knowledgeable person and from time to time: https://forums.azbilliards.com/showp...&postcount=152
  
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08-30-2018, 09:55 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BayGene View Post
As in most discussions era to era comparisons are fun but not really applicable for all sorts of factors, including the opportunities for competition and the strength of opponents.
That being said, Thorsten won the World 14, 1 in 2006, 2011, 2013, 2015, and 2018. He finished 2nd in 2017, 3-4 in 2010, and 5-8 in 2012 and 2016. He won the American championship in 2013, and finished second in 2012, 2015, and 2016. (I do not have records for the U.S. event held in 2016 ad 2017.)
Below is Allen Hopkins record, thanks to Charles Ursitti. (It does not include the 1990s, in which there were few straight pool events.)
August 25 - 29, 1970

5th Annual BCA U. S. Open
Grand Ballroom – Sheraton-Chicago Hotel - Chicago, IL
5th High Run 74
August 16 – 21, 1971

6th Annual BCA U. S. Open Sheraton-Chicago Hotel - Chicago, IL
25th
August 15 – 19, 1972

7th Annual BCA U. S. Open
Grand Ballroom – Sheraton-Chicago Hotel - Chicago, IL
9th High Run 141
January 26 – February 17, 1973

5th Annual Los Angeles World Pocket Billiard Championship Tournament American Legion Post 43 – 2035 North Highland Ave – Hollywood, CA

10th
August 7 - 11, 1973

8th BCA Annual U. S. Open
Grand Ballroom - Sheraton-Chicago Hotel - Chicago, IL
15th

February 1 - 23, 1974

6th Annual World’s Pocket Billiard Championship
American Legion Post #3 - 2035 North Highland Ave - Hollywood, CA
2nd High Run 150
August 5 - 10, 1974

9th Annual U. S. Open
Grand Ballroom – Sheraton-Chicago Hotel – Chicago
9th
August 16 – 25, 1975

10th Annual BCA U. S. Open
Grand Ballroom – Sheraton-Chicago Hotel – Chicago
5th

August 9 – 15, 1976

1st Annual PPPA World Open Asbury Park, NJ
11th
August 8 - 14, 1977

2nd Annual PPPA World Open Convention Center - Asbury Park, NJ
1st
August 12 – 19, 1978
3rd Annual PPPA World Open
Grand Ballroom - Biltmore Hotel – New York City, NY
2nd
August 12 – 18, 1979

4th Annual PPPA World Open
Holiday Inn Coliseum – 57th Street – New York City, NY
12th
August 16 – 25, 1980

5th Annual PPPA World Open 14.1 Tournament Roosevelt Hotel – 45th Street – New York City, NY
46th
August 16 – 25, 1981

6th Annual PPPA World Open 14.1 Tournament
Grand Ballroom - Roosevelt Hotel – 45th Street – New York, NY
15th
August 14 – 21, 1982

7th Annual PPPA World Open Pocket Billiard Championship
Grand Ballroom – Roosevelt Hotel – 45th Street & Madison Ave – New York City, NY
8th

August 13 - 20, 1983

8th Annual PPPA World Open 14.1 Tournament
Grand Ballroom – Roosevelt Hotel 45th Street & Madison Ave – New York City, NY
7-8th
November 18 – 23, 1985
World 14.1 Championship
International Convention Center - Niagara Falls, NY
5-6th
August 9 – 16, 1986

9th Annual PPPA World Open 14.1 Championship Philadelphia Center Hotel – Philadelphia, PA
2nd
November 28 – December 1, 1989
14th BCA U.S. Open 14.1 Championship
Congress Hotel – 520 S. Michigan Ave – Chicago, IL
7-8
Wow, thanks for this. Great information. Those were the days.
  
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08-31-2018, 01:51 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikemosconi View Post
The field of competitors in those 70s and 80s straight pool tournaments were so much better than the fields the TH competes in today and for at least the past 10 years - I have seen most of the competitors from the 70s to now playing 14.1 live and TH would really struggle to come in the top 5 of anything from the 70s and 80s, much less against Mosconi, Crane, Caras, Greenleaf, Ponzi, etc. in their prime, I really do not rank TH in the top 12 of 14.1 all time- at a minimum.
I think I have to disagree with this. Ist off, I'm not going to consider the older guys as I only saw Mosconi in person. People from back then claim Greenleaf was better but that's hard for me to believe. Of the others mentioned, I think the general consensus would be that Mosconi was the best of the bunch.
As far as the next generation goes I would rank only Mizerak, Sigel and Varner as having an edge on Hohmann. And it wouldn't be a very big edge. The others mentioned are a step behind, IMO, and that includes Hopkins who many attach godlike status to but I can't quite figure out why. I don't think Thorsten would have any trouble going deep in those tournaments back then and he'd win his share.
When talking about something like this, there're 2 ways of looking at it. You can consider the overall talent level or you can look at it from the standpoint of will to win and that is a huge, huge factor when you get to the upper echelon of any endeavor.
Of those 4 I'd rank Mizerak 1st talent wise and Sigel 1st in the killer instinct category but Hohmann is right up there in both.
I agree completely that the overall fields are easier today, particularly in the "World" tournaments of late. The American 14.1 is considerably tougher but still a little weaker than the old tourneys. Reason being is simply that the new guys don't play much straight pool. If they did I think they'd be stronger as a group than the 70's/80's guys. JMO
  
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09-02-2018, 02:53 PM

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Originally Posted by sparkle84 View Post
I think I have to disagree with this. Ist off, I'm not going to consider the older guys as I only saw Mosconi in person. People from back then claim Greenleaf was better but that's hard for me to believe. Of the others mentioned, I think the general consensus would be that Mosconi was the best of the bunch.
Mosconi vs Greenleaf is almost too close to call. I was told that statistically, Mosconi had more games in which he won on the first inning than Greenleaf, but that Greenleaf got out in two innings or less more often than Mosconi.
  
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09-04-2018, 10:50 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by sjm View Post
LOL if you're trying to compare these events to those that had Steve Mizerak, Mike Sigel, Nick Varner, Jim Rempe, Irving Crane, Joe Balsis, Dallas West, Ray Martin, Allen Hopkins, Dan DiLiberto, Jimmy Fusco, Jack Colavita, Larry Lisciotti and Pete Margo. Even Luther Lassiter and Jimmy Caras, though past their primes, were still in the mix in some of these years. All of them were focusing on straight pool back then, and every single one of them was a contender for the title of world champion.

As we've noted regularly on this forum, these Dragon events have not been world championship events for close to ten years now and, to be fair, the European Championships most definitely offer the strongest 14.1 field of the calendar year.

I wonder whether Hohmann could have topped the fields of yesteryear, given how many stone cold champions you had to beat to take down the title. He'd have been hard pressed to win even once against the toughest fields, though I feel he'd have found a way. For my money, though, he'd have always been a clear underdog against both Mizerak and Sigel.

I attended about nine world championships from the mid 1970's to the mid-1980's and I've probably attended nine of the Dragon 14.1 events. Comparing the two is comical.

Well sjm-

i have the (seriously) greatest respect for you Person :-)
But i think, that Toastie is in straight pool the guy- since a longer time. I m a fan as well talking about the "old legend".
But if we have a look at Hohman- and some of his "records" in wtiraight pool tournaments- with STRONG fiels. Or just taking the time, where he was still playin in germany- These results are speakin the truth Buddy.

Iirc his General average in one European Championship was 60+ (and we COUNT every inning, including every safety, opening shot etc).

To Play 60+ over a complete tournament, packed with strong guys-- that s a Statement.
As you said-- the european Championships is packed with good Players. I don t think there is a single Player who never ran out a straight pool match in one inning. (talking about a full field of Players).

But here, like in USA-- straight pool also became a bit more *forgotten*. But you see immediatley, that the really strong guys also Play straight pool.
I also agree, that the game changed, also because of better material. But let s have a look a John Schmidt. His high runs on TOUGH tables showing clearly, how strong the ppl nowadays became technically. I think that s the biggest difference- that we now have hundreds of guys who re able to run 100+ (or more).

having some students atm- which are playin 4th and 3th Division here in leage---- and both ran just numbers, where some ppl can just dream of- and that s almot normal here in germany. running 300 in two innings- two days later two 100+ again in a row.
and he never won something in 14.1 in big chmpaionships.

And in Hohmans time here in germany, the fields have been packed with such guys. all the time, without exception.
and that s the reason imo, why Toastie is so good: he was always forced to Play world class pool, to have a Chance to win here in league, or whereever. (and of course next to his work ethic).


sorry for the typo-- mobile phone killin me

have a smooth stroke.


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09-05-2018, 03:29 AM

In Europe peoples don΄t really play 14.1. They practice it solo. Better players a LOT.
Only time they normally play it, is on tournaments. 14.1 Tournaments are quite rare still. Normally maybe one or 2 national tournaments per year + possible European Championships.
Anyways. It is number one practice for strong players(at least somewhere during their improvement).
I try always get 14.1 matches when I can. Normally I get 2-7 per year and if i happen to run 80-100(100 point game) my opponents normally don΄t play it again.

Edit: maybe they play more 14.1 on Germany(Ratta΄s post)


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09-06-2018, 06:28 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratta View Post
Well sjm-

i have the (seriously) greatest respect for you Person :-)
But i think, that Toastie is in straight pool the guy- since a longer time. I m a fan as well talking about the "old legend".
But if we have a look at Hohman- and some of his "records" in wtiraight pool tournaments- with STRONG fiels. Or just taking the time, where he was still playin in germany- These results are speakin the truth Buddy.

Iirc his General average in one European Championship was 60+ (and we COUNT every inning, including every safety, opening shot etc).

To Play 60+ over a complete tournament, packed with strong guys-- that s a Statement.
As you said-- the european Championships is packed with good Players. I don t think there is a single Player who never ran out a straight pool match in one inning. (talking about a full field of Players).

But here, like in USA-- straight pool also became a bit more *forgotten*. But you see immediatley, that the really strong guys also Play straight pool.
I also agree, that the game changed, also because of better material. But let s have a look a John Schmidt. His high runs on TOUGH tables showing clearly, how strong the ppl nowadays became technically. I think that s the biggest difference- that we now have hundreds of guys who re able to run 100+ (or more).

having some students atm- which are playin 4th and 3th Division here in leage---- and both ran just numbers, where some ppl can just dream of- and that s almot normal here in germany. running 300 in two innings- two days later two 100+ again in a row.
and he never won something in 14.1 in big chmpaionships.

And in Hohmans time here in germany, the fields have been packed with such guys. all the time, without exception.
and that s the reason imo, why Toastie is so good: he was always forced to Play world class pool, to have a Chance to win here in league, or whereever. (and of course next to his work ethic).


sorry for the typo-- mobile phone killin me

have a smooth stroke.
That 60+ average over the course of a top tournament will probably never be beaten, unless they start playing every match to 200 or something. I still like watching Engert play, more than Hohman, but Hohman is almost certainly the best straightpoolplayer for the last couple of decades, maybe even more. It's so hard to tell with all the people bringing up players that have been dead for half a century or more, that you have to be 70-80 plus years old to have even seen play and one, who probably no one alive has seen play. I'm not taking away from any of their skills and accomplishments, but it's just so hard to make those kinds of determinations when the players are long gone and there is not even much if any video of them in their prime.

Hohman plays the modern, European style of straight pool, which is big breaks, wide open play. It's kind of different to the players of the old era. It doesn't mean he has any less control, it's just a different way to play the game, made possible by better equipment. Had he lived in the old era, he would have adapted, had the old guys lived now, they would have adapted. It's not an apples to apples comparison.

Last edited by Straightpool_99; 09-06-2018 at 07:12 AM.
  
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