Table sizes over time

L

LApoolbum

New member
This is a question for anyone who might have access to Brunswick production records or Billiard Room Association purchasing records etc.
What has been the distribution of table sizes over the years? In particular I'm curious about the relative number of 5x10 vs. 4.5x9 over the years. Both Mosconi ( in his book 'Willie's Game') and Caras (in the Mort Luby jr. interview) stated that the 5x10's were largely found in the bigger rooms in the bigger cities. Caras mentioned that at some point( 1949?) Brunswick started pushing the 4.5x9 over the 5x10.
Both Caras and Mosconi stated (in their respective video interviews) that the game on the 5x10 was significantly different than on the 4.5x9. This fascinates me because I know only the 4.5x9 and so all this history I have been learning reflects a game I don't know.
 
Rocky247

Rocky247

AzB Silver Member
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They had a 5x10 converted at the famous Rack pool room. I practiced on it for about an hour and all i can tell you is it was a MONSTER to play on.
 
ctyhntr

ctyhntr

RIP Kelly
Silver Member
I haven't played on a 5x10, and wondered what kind of cloth was used? When did Simonis 860 come on the market?
 
14oneman

14oneman

Straight, no chaser!
Silver Member
LApoolbum said:
This is a question for anyone who might have access to Brunswick production records or Billiard Room Association purchasing records etc.
What has been the distribution of table sizes over the years? In particular I'm curious about the relative number of 5x10 vs. 4.5x9 over the years. Both Mosconi ( in his book 'Willie's Game') and Caras (in the Mort Luby jr. interview) stated that the 5x10's were largely found in the bigger rooms in the bigger cities. Caras mentioned that at some point( 1949?) Brunswick started pushing the 4.5x9 over the 5x10.
Both Caras and Mosconi stated (in their respective video interviews) that the game on the 5x10 was significantly different than on the 4.5x9. This fascinates me because I know only the 4.5x9 and so all this history I have been learning reflects a game I don't know.
Click to expand...

Having grown up around Willie,(he was a family friend), I remember what he told me about 5x10's. He said mostly only 'pro' events were played on 5x10's, and mostly in the North East portion of the country. Not all pool halls had those size tables. (I was fortunate that the room I used to shoot at when I was young, did).

Apparently most Southern tourney's were played on 4.5x9's and a lot of Southern shooters disliked playing in Northern events, because of the larger tables, so the BCA decided to 'standardize' and make everything 4.5x9, as to increase the playing field, and if my memory serves me correctly, I believe he said that happened in 1949. Williw definitely preferred the larger tables. I can't say as I blame him.
 
Mr. Bond

Mr. Bond

Orbis Non Sufficit
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LApoolbum said:
This is a question for anyone who might have access to Brunswick production records or Billiard Room Association purchasing records etc.
What has been the distribution of table sizes over the years? In particular I'm curious about the relative number of 5x10 vs. 4.5x9 over the years. Both Mosconi ( in his book 'Willie's Game') and Caras (in the Mort Luby jr. interview) stated that the 5x10's were largely found in the bigger rooms in the bigger cities. Caras mentioned that at some point( 1949?) Brunswick started pushing the 4.5x9 over the 5x10.
Both Caras and Mosconi stated (in their respective video interviews) that the game on the 5x10 was significantly different than on the 4.5x9. This fascinates me because I know only the 4.5x9 and so all this history I have been learning reflects a game I don't know.
Click to expand...

i hate to sound mean but brunswick doesnt have record of squat. they've had fires and floods and in some cases, they just flat out threw records away by the dumpster load with complete abandon. if you ask me, someone deserves a swift kick in the shin.

sorry, i got distracted - back to the subject - yes, playing on a 10ft table is a bit more difficult but i really enjoy it to be honest with ya. (and it certainly opens your eyes to the accomplishments of the old school 10ft table masters)

but what a pain for short people, bridging every other shot!
 
Mr. Bond

Mr. Bond

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Caras mentions:
1969 Caras excerpt.JPG
 
obe1

obe1

AzB Gold Member
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10x5

Harkins in ST PAUL had 6-10 left when i started playing there in the early 60's but i was told it was all 10 footers in the late 40's. one pocket was the game on those tables and man when you set up for a down table shot it was a sea of blue ...I am looking for one now,tuff to find anymore.
 
14oneman

14oneman

Straight, no chaser!
Silver Member
obe1 said:
I am looking for one now,tuff to find anymore.
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Man, I'd love to have a 10' table, like the Centennials I used to play on growing up. Does any company still make a 10' table, or is the only option to find one from yesteryear, and hope it's not to far gone to refurbish?
 
Mr. Bond

Mr. Bond

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I am not aware of any table maker that currently offers a 10ft pocket table
 
Mr. Bond

Mr. Bond

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right - but I don't think anyone in the u.s. is producing pyramid tables either...

Are you really from Moscow? I'll have to practice my russian on you some time
 
G

gmillioni

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
10ft tables

played on a few at cochrans pool in san francisco in the 50/60's. ronnie allan won the us one pocket open on it late 50's i believe, maybe 1960. denny searcy played it regularly, as did lasiter, weenie beenie, and a few other notables who resided there for a while. never actually saw welker cockran play them, but he did play billiards. his room was immense on the second floor of a place on market street. the best i can recall is this:
5 or 6 12x6 snooker tables, four 5x10 billiard tables, 2 5x10's, and a bunch of 4.5x9's. one of the first tables to come onto as soon as you entered onto the floor was an open play 6x12 snooker table. each man payed a nickel a cue to play with the loser of the game paying for all the cues in the game. imagine that, six players playing three red ball snooker for a nickel a cue.

as for finding a 5x10, well they got to be stored somewhere.
 
N

nickgeo

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
5x10

Hi,
I am fortunate to have acquired a 5x10 Kling a couple of years ago. I had it set up with 4 3/8-inch-wide pockets (measured at the points) and 2-inch-deep pocket ledges (measured from the line across the points to the center drop point). Might be the toughest table in Texas.
The table is challenging. 14.1 plays less crowded, but all the shots are a little longer. 9-ball is really tough with the long shots and long-distance position.
There were still 5x10s in the rooms in NYC when I started to play in 1960. But mostly 4x8s and 4.5x9s. Wanted the nostalgia, and gave up my 4.5x9 GC 1 to get the Kling.
I hope you get a chance to spend some quality shooting time on the 5x10 ocean (what it feels like). Dropping an 11-footer feels great.
Take care,
Nick
 
G

gibson

gibson
I read some stories about the old time hustlers such as Fats. Fats said he learned to play on 5 x 10 tables with tight pockets and that he had an advantage over younger players who never had the opportunity to play on those behemoths.
 
Lonestar_jim

Lonestar_jim

Two & Out
Silver Member
nickgeo said:
Hi,
I am fortunate to have acquired a 5x10 Kling a couple of years ago. I had it set up with 4 3/8-inch-wide pockets (measured at the points) and 2-inch-deep pocket ledges (measured from the line across the points to the center drop point). Might be the toughest table in Texas.
The table is challenging. 14.1 plays less crowded, but all the shots are a little longer. 9-ball is really tough with the long shots and long-distance position.
There were still 5x10s in the rooms in NYC when I started to play in 1960. But mostly 4x8s and 4.5x9s. Wanted the nostalgia, and gave up my 4.5x9 GC 1 to get the Kling.
I hope you get a chance to spend some quality shooting time on the 5x10 ocean (what it feels like). Dropping an 11-footer feels great.
Take care,
Nick
Click to expand...

Wow, this is awesome. Great for you, sir.
 
Mr. Bond

Mr. Bond

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Aug. 26th, 1949 The Billiard Congress of America officially approved changing the "standard" size pocket table from 5x10 feet to 4.5 x 9 feet.
 
J

jerseybillG

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
5x10 brunswick in 1950 jersey city

Started playing pool on a 4.5 x9 in a local fellows rec/room He set it up for kids to learn the game. Had dart, ping pong and the pool table. So i started going after school (age 13) 1949..about 2 yrs later was able to get in local pool room with 5x10 Billiard /5x10 pool/+ 3, 4.5x9s all well cared for and a back room for the older guys for poker games.So i spent lot`s of time on a 5x10 (ran 51 and a few 20`s and sat. we played 9 ball 5 player limit( you had to wait for a drop out to gain entry. ..great memories of quiet (no tv radio by the racker(bro` of owner) visits by Mosconi , Caras, etc:
 
hunger strike

hunger strike

AzB Silver Member
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Changes

Mr. Bond said:
Aug. 26th, 1949 The Billiard Congress of America officially approved changing the "standard" size pocket table from 5x10 feet to 4.5 x 9 feet.
Click to expand...

From what I remember when I looked through all the records, four major changes occurred in championship standards since straght pool was first played for the championship in 1912. The pockets had been 4.5" at the corners, and that changed. The balls were ivory, and that changed. The balls were 2 5/16" "professional size" and that changed. Then I believe the table size down to 9' was the last change if I am not mistaken. I am working away from home and don't have the records. But the balls may not have been ivory before 1916 at least for some time period (composition/clay balls had been made for a while by then.) I say this because the Billiards Magazine article describing Blankenship's 1916 championship win make reference to the ivory balls giving all the players fits because they were not used to them and it was noteworthy that Blankenship was the only player who had no problem with them. You would think that Brunswick's star players who made up most of the field would have been used to ivory balls if championships had been using them before 1916.
 
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